Zhuge Liang's alterior motives

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Zhuge Liang's alterior motives

Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:17 pm

Hello everyone,

I have a theory which I think is very interesting, but I dont know if it holds water.

Zhuge Liang's brother, Chin, worked for Wu. Chin was not held in a very high view in Wu, but I feel that Liang and Chin could have been planning something against both of their leaders.

What I feel is that Chin and Liang may have wanted to ally Wu and Shu, not for the reason of mutual protection against Wei, but that if Shu or Wu were sucessful in an attack on Wei, and susequently destroyed it, then Shu and Wu would have been the two countries left.

When Wei is destoryed that leaves Liang in a very comfortable position- not only is there an old leader (Liu Bei) but there is a young incompetant one coming up (Liu Shan).

Upon Bei's death, Liang may have used the connection with his brother and the (hopefully) allied houses of Shu and Wu to take advantage of both countries- Chin could keep arguing to the Sun family that they are tied by marriage, therefore not to attack, and Liang could slowly plan his domination of Wu provinces, getting his plan ready while Wu suspects nothing.

Near the end of SGYY there is a part where Liang is sent to attack Wei, (after his above plans seem somewhat unsucessful) but Huang Hao tells Liu Shan that he is planning to break away into his own state, what if there was some truth in that? Liu Shan wasn't a great general or leader, so if Liang had decided to do so, he would have found it easy to take Shu, but he needed to have removed Wei in the North to have a lessened threat of Wu on his Southern borders.

The reason that I thought of this argument is the insistance of Guan Yu's marriage to an Wu princess, and Liang's parsuasive argument to Liu Bei that he could marry Sun Xiang Shang, knowing some plan is afoot, but double bluff them and still have a wife. Liang also fails to really teach Liu Bei's son in politics, and maybe this is purpousful too.

With Shu and Wu allied, Liang is in the most powerful position ever, and Chin would have been rewarded in position if he was sucessful with Guan Yu's marriage to Wu forces, therefore making the Zhuge family a force to contend with.... IF they can conquor Wei.
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Unread postby Gal Jon » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:57 pm

Presuming I know who ure talking about, because I only thought he had two brothers Jun and Jin (perhaps its a Chinese translation) then I'm not to sure. Zhuge Jin was fairly loyal I would say, just that he wasn't that good. People have raised questions about him before, but the truth was he didn't do much. He was part of Lu Xun's team who defeated Wei, but if he had had any disloyal thoughts, his son would have carried on. However, what you say about Liang is true. If Wei had been defeated after Yi Ling and Liu Bei and the old guard had died, leaving Wu and Shu, Liang would have plotted to anhilalate Wu, and I think he was planning this as he went along on his northern campaigns. There were a lot of times when he was fighting up north and he sent to Wu for help, and if they had mustered a large force and headed north, Zhuge Liang could have sent the troops he had stationed at Bai Dai, which he had quite a few of, into Wu territory and taken both kingdoms out while they were fighting each other. that's my weird theory anyway
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:42 pm

Zhuge Jin, not that good? Quite the contrary. He may not have been a genius, but he was up there with the likes of Li Dian and other exceeding-average commanders, and he was a skilled diplomat. Guan Yu's refusal to yield Jingzhou is more a testament to Guan Yu's arrogance and overconfidence than to Zhuge Jin's lack of ability.

Zhuge Jin does not have much information published about him, but that does not change the fact that he was trusted by Sun Quan, Lu Xun, and Zhou Yu.
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and then there are those who allow the world to shape them.
It is in the balance that greatness is achieved."
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:43 am

just to clarify, I'm talking about Zhuge Jin (his name can be spelt Chin as well, but I'm not a fan of translating Chinese into English anyway, you never know how to spell it! :wink: )

You say that if Jin had had any disloyal thoughts someone would know about it, but I would argue that he didn't have a chance to use his disloyalty because Liang his brother wasn't as sucessful as they had both hoped.

I feel that if Liang had taken Wei territory and secured it then Jin would have tried to use his influence to easy Sun Quan's mind about Liang's armies, telling him that they are there to protect them or something of that nature, allowing Liang to really get his military stratagems in place before a push.

I'm not saying though that I really believe this theory, but I do think that there might be something in it!
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Unread postby Jordan » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:27 am

Possibly but remember that when Liu Bei was dying he said explicitly that Zhuge Liang could take over whenever he wanted if Liu Chan was unfit to rule. Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang had an extremely trusting relationship and knew each other very, very well. They were almost like brothers. If Zhuge Liang had alterior motives he could have just deposed of Liu Chan when Liu Bei had given him the chance.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:36 am

You're quite right of course, but a Liu handing his dynasty to a Zhuge would mean a new dynasty, and would have meant Han had indeed fallen.

Of course, we are talking about Zhuge simply working as the king where Liu Chan works as a figure head for the Han dynasty, but I feel that Zhuge could have become an emperor if Wei and Wu had fallen to Shu. It would have looked awful in historical terms if Zhuge Liang had killed Liu Chan when he accused him of betrayal through the "lies" of Huang Hao. I think Zhuge was also scared of loosing face, and that's why he didn't want to take the crown unless the other kingdoms were gone.
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to take the devil's advocate

Unread postby HuangTi » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:50 pm

there could be some truth in it. Think about it, if he took over it'd be the start of a new dynasty. But if he played Liu Shan right he'd have all the power without generations of peoples hating him.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:12 pm

Em it's a nice theory. But won't Zhuge taken Shu far easy, just declare a useless ruler. Hold an election and he would surelyhe the best choice. However lets just say he was an ambitious smart pants. The first thing he would have to do, would be to eliminate Pang tong ! He was assinated, after all Zhuge Liang knew that some great general was going to die, but he didn't do enough to prevent Pang's death. His next big target would have been Wei Yan, because he feared that he was on to him, but since he was one of the 5 tiger generals he couldn't kill him out rigth, so he set up a plan, to kill him when he made a mistake. O dear maybe he was :twisted: Na a guy with such well prefected facial hair couldn't be bad :lol:
"The fine line before, arrogance and confitdence is bearly visible when we hold our heads up high" Me thats who !
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:14 pm

ok, for 1 I would have thought it would be impossible to hold elections, if they were held, then they'd be in court amoungst the generals and advisers of Shu. Shu being a Han dyastic line would have been more faithful to Han than any other country during this time, so they would still have voted at least for a Liu.

2) I dont see that getting rid of your childhood friends and allies would haev done Liang any good- Pang Tong studied with Jhuge Liang when he was young, therefore would have been more loyal to Liang than those officers who were Han loyalists, so by killing Pang Tong, Liang would have wounded himself.

3) Wei Yen was not a tiger general, therefore there is no reason to fear him on that count.

I dont feel that Zhuge would have made a move to self empire until Wei and Wu had fallen anyway, and he would have feared the rebellion of the Han loyalists while Wei and Wu weer around. Since there was such anti Han sentiment at the time, I would think that Zhuge would have two choices once the Han capital is taken and the country is reunited:

1) Continue to be "Han loyalist" prime minister, and in fact, have the best job in the whole country (more powerful than the emperor, and as much power as Cao Cao)

2) If there was another massive rebellion against the Han, then join the rebels and defeat Han hands down and easily, making himself Emperor of the new dynasty.
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Unread postby barbarosso » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:45 pm

Shi Tong wrote:ok, for 1 I would have thought it would be impossible to hold elections, if they were held, then they'd be in court amoungst the generals and advisers of Shu. Shu being a Han dyastic line would have been more faithful to Han than any other country during this time, so they would still have voted at least for a Liu.
Not necessarly.

Come on i was only joking, and trying to find some evidence for the yes he was agruement :oops:
"The fine line before, arrogance and confitdence is bearly visible when we hold our heads up high" Me thats who !
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