Liu Bei: a fake?

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Is Liu Bei really loyal?

Yes
10
63%
No
3
19%
Other
3
19%
 
Total votes : 16

Liu Bei: a fake?

Unread postby REMIX » Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:04 pm

My favourtie kingdom is shu (dont really know why) and i started thinking about them. One thing i thought was that Liu Bei may not really be the good and virtuos type of leader that he was thought to be.

I started thinking this because at first he was working with an old friend and teacher Gongsun Zan. Liu Bei's ambition was to stop the chaos in the land and save the han dynasty. If he had of stayed with Gongsun Zan he would have got a better chance of saving the han. But for some reason he left. Next he was with Cao Cao. But then he left again before he even knew that Cao Cao would bring the han into further chaos. My thought was this: if he was aiming to save the han dynasty why didnt he just had stayed and work with either Cao Cao or gongsun Zan making the goal easier to reach. For some reason he abandoned both Gongsun Zan and Cao Cao for no good reason and tried to save the dynasty himself. So i started thinking that Liu Bei may not be any different from Cao Cao as he may have wanted to have absolute power as well. If he didnt then why did he leave Cao Cao and Gongsun Zan?

After thinking this I started to think that maybe even Liu Bei had the thought of overthrowing the emperor himself or maybe just try and gain power by taking advantage of the emperor like Cao Cao did.

So what do you think?

ModEdit (SH): Added poll so that people could vote on this subject. Have a nice day!
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Unread postby SixWingGryffin » Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:28 pm

For one thing, he viewed Cao Cao as a rebel. With Gongsun Zan, he left to help Tao Qian, and just never bothered to go back. I don't know if he ever intended to; perhaps he wanted to save the Han on his own, rather than in Gonsun's shadow.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:59 am

Well with Gongsun Zan Liu Bei got permission to leave. When Tao Qian called for help (Tao Qian was an ally of Gongsun Zan) Liu Bei left with one of Gongsun Zan's officers to reinforce Tao Qian. When Tao Qian died Liu Bei took over with the full blessings of Tao Qian's officials. Now If Liu Bei went back north Cao Cao could have simply walked in and talken Xu. Cao Cao was allied with Yuan Shao against Gongsun Zan so Zan couldn't have this happen so he never compained when Liu Bei took over as the governor of Xu since they were still friends and allies. So therefore he never abandoned Gongsun Zan he just decided that this would be a better way of helping.
With Cao Cao Liu Bei would have definitly known what kind of man Cao Cao was and what his abition was since they became friends. They had many discussions and knew eachother very well. Also remember that the Girdle edict is indeed historical and Liu Bei was apart of it (Ma Teng though historically wasn't) So that was the reason he betrayed Cao Cao. The emperor himself was gathering allies and Liu Bei decided to help. He couldn't do anything inside the capital since he had no support in the capital however the people of Xu knew him to be a fair and just ruler. So he asked permission to fight against Yuan Shu, Cao Cao agreed but on the way Yuan Shu died. Thus Liu Bei decided to go to Xu instead and killed the governor and took over the provience. Gongsun Zan was dead by this time so Liu Bei seeked to ally with the strongest power besides Cao Cao which was Yuan Shao who agreed to an alliance but never sent troops to help Liu Bei.

Well that is the reason that Liu Bei left those two people whom he had followed before.
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Unread postby REMIX » Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:57 am

Thats kind of a good point, but even with Yuan Shao he left as well. The quote that got me thinking was: "Liu Bei is not one to serve another for long" which i think Yuan Shao said.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:24 pm

I'm not sure if Liu Bei was really a Han loyalist or just using it as a rallying cry becuase he was a Liu. I think he was ambtoius man with exceptional skills to match and he would betray if he felt he had to but as he was relying on PR, he would be careful how he did so
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Unread postby stally » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:53 pm

well Liu Bei is an ambitious man and anyone that wants power is good to a certain degree. He is definately not as virtuous as the books make him out to be and things shouldn't be looked at as black and white.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:39 pm

It is true that he wasn't as goody goody as the book made him out to be but that is quite a standard to live up to. Liu Bei said that he was fighting for the Han, if he really was well that is impossible to know since he don't have Liu Bei's personal thoughts written down (a diary would be nice :P) He did some things that could make you question his loyalty (King of Han Zhong) But it is not like he created his own dynasty. When Liu Xian was diposed Liu Bei said that he was the next emperor of the Han and only did this after Cao Pi destroyed the Han so it kind of seems like Liu Bei was trying to preserve the Han rather then replace it. However we don't trully know.

Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao is iffy in history. I think he just got tired of being sent in impossible missions. Liu Bei left Yuan Shao after Shao lost at Guan Du. He decided that Yuan Shao wasn't going to win so he just abandoned Ru Nan and went to Liu Biao. So it can be interpreted that he abandoned Yuan Shao when he really needed him but really now what was Liu Bei going to do with 1,000 bandits against Cao Cao's army? So he kind of has a reason but itis shaky.
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Unread postby REMIX » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:59 pm

I dont really hate Liu Bei but i wanted to hear other people's view on Liu Bei. So what do other people think?
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:26 am

If Liu Bei had decided to restore the Han under another force (if he'd have contined to work for Cao Cao for instance) he would have been liable to listen to his "lord", Cao Cao would still have had just as much power over Han and the emperor if Liu was working for Cao, after all, he is only a lower adviser or official.

Liu Bei had to be alone, so that if he managed his dream to restore the Han to the capital, and put the emperor properly on his throne he didn't have anyone else to answer to. It would have been up to Liu himself to see that the emperor was properly restored and not just in name (which is what he was under Cao Cao).

LiuBeiwasGreat is right though, we dont know if he really was ambitious to start his own dynasty in reality, maybe he would have made it back to the capital and called himself emperor, we'll never know because he didn't have a diary :wink:
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:36 am

This thread is very close to this thread, topic-wise.

http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t ... sc&start=0

I'll leave it open for now to see what Lady Wu thinks though.
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