No Sima Yi?

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Unread postby Fei Yi » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:27 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:[that is insulting to the new generation novel or history :P well Zhang He is dead so he it out(great move Sima)... In can't remember who is alive..

but Kongming gets to Chang An.... how does he propose to take it before he is driven back by numbers? Only if Hao Zho can hold him off with such bad odds, why can't a huge number in Chang An hold? Shu has talent but lacks numbers, Wei has talent(ok nobody to counter Zhuge) and numbers, I still see Wei winning.


Okay, perhaps it is a little insulting to the new generation and sure Jin had some great generals (Du Yu, Wang Yun and Yang Gu). Still I think they can't match the quality of the former generation.

On the second point I have to agree with Huang Bob. As demonstrated in his examples, sheer numbers doesn't mean anything at al. To give another example: the battle of Alexander the Great for the conquest of babylon. He made his enemy run while he was vastly outnumbered. Without able talent, Zhuge would have a very good chance of conquering Chang An.
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:09 am

Wasn't Wang Yun the man who thought up the chaining scheme to beat Dong Zhou.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:08 am

MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! wrote:Wasn't Wang Yun the man who thought up the chaining scheme to beat Dong Zhou.


yes but this is a diffrent one

Still I think they can't match the quality of the former generation. yeah that would be becuase most of us don't hear much about them.

Without able talent, Zhuge would have a very good chance of conquering Chang An.

tell me one place Kongming took with ease in a seige? Kongming at best is inexpirenced in siege warfare, whoever is at Chang An has numbers and can just sit there for the most part, letting Wei reinforce him. I still doubt Kongming can take it.

Numbers mean nothing.

numbers are helpful though not vital. Still look what happend to Hannibal, 30-1 odds and though he did fantasticly, he still lost due to numbers.
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Unread postby Huang Bob » Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:32 pm

Could that be becuase Hannibal had to travel all the way around through Spain and cross the Alps to get to Italy in the first place? The moment anyone in Hannibal's army said "Let's go around the Mediterranean and attack from the north!" you could already tell it was doomed to fail. Not to mention they were fighting Rome, of all Empires.

Hannibal is a bad example for what you're trying to say.

If Zhuge Liang got to Chang An, Wei would have the advantage if and only if it were a seige. That would not happen, if you read through the Northern Campaigns (Novel), Zhuge Liang always wanted to draw his enemy out into the field.
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Unread postby Li Ruiyue » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:07 pm

Zhuge Liang wouldn't have been able to defeat Wei even if Sima Yi wasn't born and helping the army. Shu had many internal and army problems and couldn't cope against the force of Wei anyway. Zhuge tried his best to lead Shu to victory, but while struggling with supplies and people who didn't support his ideas (Wei Yan), all he accomplished was to stall Shu's demise.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:25 am

Huang Bob wrote:Could that be becuase Hannibal had to travel all the way around through Spain and cross the Alps to get to Italy in the first place? The moment anyone in Hannibal's army said "Let's go around the Mediterranean and attack from the north!" you could already tell it was doomed to fail. Not to mention they were fighting Rome, of all Empires.

Hannibal is a bad example for what you're trying to say.

If Zhuge Liang got to Chang An, Wei would have the advantage if and only if it were a seige. That would not happen, if you read through the Northern Campaigns (Novel), Zhuge Liang always wanted to draw his enemy out into the field.


well they knew Rome was going to attack and that Rome controlled the seas. Haniball could just sit and prepare to die or tie up 75% of the Roman forces for 30 years in hope his goverment would back him. A great achivment

Zhuge had better odds and didn't manage anything like a out numbered, diffrent cultered army led by Hannibal. Even in the novel.

Right and Wei would just rush out of chang An to open battle with no defence in Chang An?
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Unread postby Huang Bob » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:29 pm

I didn't say Wei would send their entire defending force. As you've said, Wei outnumbers Shu, so they could easily leave a good amount in the castle. We don't know how much Wei outnumbers Shu, but even if they did march their entire force out, they'd do it in at least 2 groups, like the art of war says. And it's not like the battle would take place right next to the city walls, and it's not like Wei would leave the gates of Chang An open for a random Shu soldier to run in and claim the city.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:51 am

Huang Bob wrote:I didn't say Wei would send their entire defending force. As you've said, Wei outnumbers Shu, so they could easily leave a good amount in the castle. We don't know how much Wei outnumbers Shu, but even if they did march their entire force out, they'd do it in at least 2 groups, like the art of war says. And it's not like the battle would take place right next to the city walls, and it's not like Wei would leave the gates of Chang An open for a random Shu soldier to run in and claim the city.


sorry I got too sarcastic. The general rule for seiges is what...3 men for defenders one is a good start? I'm just saying that Sima Yi's uh sudden death doesn't mean that it is all over at Chang An.
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