No Sima Yi?

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No Sima Yi?

Unread postby EmperorWei » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:34 am

If Sima Yi was not alive to stand up aganist Kongming and Shu,would the Kingdom of Wei fall easily to Shu and Wu?
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:59 am

I don't think so Wei had many other talented generals like Deng Ai, Chen Tai, Guo Huai, and even Zhong Hui.
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Unread postby Huang Bob » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:06 am

Guo Huai alone wouldn't last long against Zhuge Liang, the other 3 might have, but they probably weren't discovered or born yet. 1 of them was under 10 years of age by the time of Wu Zhang, might've been 2 of them. Deng Ai was in his 20s, and probably held a low rank, if he was even serving Wei when Zhuge Liang began his campaigns.

By the time any of those (minus Guo Huai) came of age, Shu could have easily gained significant ground in Wei.
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Unread postby IsbenFaith » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:50 am

No, I don't think Zhuge could have had any more success if Sima wasn't around.

He had constant supply troubles, unrealiable generals at home, and an incompetant Emperor. He was a genius, but he wasn't some undefeatable commander.

Any campaign he'd undertake he'd need either more supplies than Shu could produce to maintain his armies, or enough quick victories to ensure any success in a protracted campaign like the conquering of Wei.

Not to mention, reliable generals dieing off at a pretty consistant rate and having to rely on Li Yan. Unfortunately, Shu lost all of their Tiger Generals except Wei Yan by the time of Wu Zhang so they had to try to accomplish more than ever with less.

I think any Wei general would have known the proper course to take which is to wall up and not make any stupid moves and Zhuge would have to retreat, Sima Yi isn't all that special in this regard.
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Unread postby man4422 » Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:04 am

If Sima Yi were to replace with Deng Ai, I think Zhuge Liang also quite hard to defeat him because Deng Ai talent is not worse than Sima Yi, and he is cautious and not like Sima Yi, only wait for action.

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Unread postby SixWingGryffin » Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:16 am

Probably, but if Zhong Hui was sent, Zhuge could probably defeat him by way of his ego, and if Deng was, Zhuge could have him intrigued against, more likely than not.
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Unread postby Huang Bob » Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:23 am

IsbenFaith wrote:Not to mention, reliable generals dieing off at a pretty consistant rate and having to rely on Li Yan. Unfortunately, Shu lost all of their Tiger Generals except Wei Yan by the time of Wu Zhang so they had to try to accomplish more than ever with less.

I think any Wei general would have known the proper course to take which is to wall up and not make any stupid moves and Zhuge would have to retreat, Sima Yi isn't all that special in this regard.


What generals he had wouldn't make any difference, a great commander knows how to properly use what's given to him. An incompetent Emperor shouldn't make a difference on the field of battle, unless of course the Emperor is on the field of battle. I don't think Liang had to "rely" on Li Yan, there were many other officers he could have chosen, Li Yan let him down. The blame belongs to both, but very little on Kongming.

Anyone can wall up in a city and wait for the enemy to retreat. A select few can ignore the enemy's taunts (because we all know Liang would have riled up the enemy commander somehow no matter who it was), and prevent his generals from responding to them.

Now the question is, with Sima Yi dead, could Wei stand up to Shu. If ZhongDa was not alive for any of ZL's campaigns, then I think (I think), that there wouldn't have been any campaign after the first. Meng Da revolts in Shang Yong, there's no Sima Yi to stop him. In the novel, it's mentioned that a memorial would have to be sent to Cao Rui to attack him, taking a month. Many possible moves could be taken during that time. Kongming could easily make it to Chang An with help from Meng Da, and there probably wouldn't be a Jieting.

I don't think there was any other general in Wei that could have put up a fight against Liang like Sima Yi did.
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:36 am

I couldnt think of them earlier but Hao Zhao and his defense, with the capable Zhang He, they still have the might of Wang Shuang, and Cao Zhen wasnt a complete moron like the novel makes him.
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Unread postby Huang Bob » Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:54 am

Zhang He and Wang Shuang are nothing without a good strategist to make use of them...which brings me to...Hao Zhao.
I can't say much for or against Hao Zhao..although I consider him as one of the few who could counter Zhuge Liang (Counter him Novelwise). I can only say that we don't know how HZ could compare to ZL in the field.
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Unread postby Xiahou Lao » Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:05 am

I think histroicly Wei would have won anyways. I don't think Zhuge Liang was that great of a stratgist.
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