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Did Wu really need Kong Ming's help?

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am
by EmperorWei
Did Wu really need the help of Kong Ming before the Battle of Chibi. Sun Quan had many talented and capable advisors and Generals like Zhou Yu,Chuko Chin,Yu Fan,Huang Gai,and Gan Ning. Was Kong Ming really necessary in helping Wu aganist Cao Cao?

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:19 am
by Wo Long
No, but then again, Kongming didn't help. He only gave them info and said that the southeast wind would blow. That's all. So no they didn't need the help that he never gave to them. Now Pang Tong, he helped them with the chain-the-ships-together ploy. That sneaky little weasel!

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:15 pm
by Jaing_Wei12
I beleive that they did. Im sure Kongming gave them more advice than the wind was going to blow. This was a highly important battle and Zhuge was the best advisor of his time, I think he would have given more advice.

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:48 pm
by LiuBeiwasGreat
Novelwise then yes Wu could have never won if Zhuge didn't help them.
Historywise, well they probably would have won anyway. Depending on which bios you believe Zhuge either did pretty much nothing or he was essential in convincing Sun Quan to fight.

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:40 pm
by Lady Wu
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Novelwise then yes Wu could have never won if Zhuge didn't help them.

You think so? Even in the novel, Zhuge Liang's role isn't that crucial. Sure, Sun Quan doubted, but Zhou Yu and Lu Su never did, and those are the people Sun Quan really relied on. Zhuge Liang didn't turn them from "doubting" to "non-doubting", but only strengthened their resolve to fight. Not to say that that isn't important, but it's not like they would have surrendered if it weren't for him.

Regarding the fire attack: Zhou Yu and Huang Gai thought of the plan independently of Zhuge Liang. They might not have foreseen the day of the wind, but they would have taken advantage of the day when the southeast wind started blowing anyway. The chaining scheme is Pang Tong's, and he was a Wu officer at that time.

Regarding the arrows: After the fire starts burning, it's close-contact combat, and arrows are of little use.

Also don't forget that Wu won the first skirmish against the North.

Zhuge Liang's arrival in Wu might have sped things up, but I don't think it was essential to Wu's survival.

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:51 pm
by LiuBeiwasGreat
Lady Wu wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Novelwise then yes Wu could have never won if Zhuge didn't help them.

You think so? Even in the novel, Zhuge Liang's role isn't that crucial. Sure, Sun Quan doubted, but Zhou Yu and Lu Su never did, and those are the people Sun Quan really relied on. Zhuge Liang didn't turn them from "doubting" to "non-doubting", but only strengthened their resolve to fight. Not to say that that isn't important, but it's not like they would have surrendered if it weren't for him.

Regarding the fire attack: Zhou Yu and Huang Gai thought of the plan independently of Zhuge Liang. They might not have foreseen the day of the wind, but they would have taken advantage of the day when the southeast wind started blowing anyway. The chaining scheme is Pang Tong's, and he was a Wu officer at that time.

Regarding the arrows: After the fire starts burning, it's close-contact combat, and arrows are of little use.

Also don't forget that Wu won the first skirmish against the North.

Zhuge Liang's arrival in Wu might have sped things up, but I don't think it was essential to Wu's survival.


Well in the novel even after Zhou Yu orignally talked to Sun Quan it was only Zhuge Liang who forsaw that Sun Quan was stil not totally convinced. Zhuge Liang had to send Zhuo Yu back to further convince Sun Quan.

With the fire attack remember that Zhuo Yu became ill when he figured out that the wind was blowing the wrong way. He only recovered when Zhuge Liang convinced him that he could make the wind blow. If Zhuo Yu was still ill when the wind began to blow then there is a good chance that he would not be able to take advantage of it quickly enough before Cao Cao became did something to counter this threat.

With the close combat are you saying that Sun Quan's troops climbed aboard the burning ships? They raked them with arrows until they got to the other side where they could actually fight hand to hand. However you are right that most of the damage that Sun Quan's soldiers did was in face to face combat the arrow thing wasn't as important as it is made to seem.

I will never deny that Wu won the first skirmish. However wasn't the first skirmish done by 5,000 men who weren't used to navel combat? Liu Yao could have defeated that force :P

Don't get me wrong i don't think that the victory credit should go to Zhuge Liang alone. Wu had to be there or else Liu Bei an Zhuge Liang would have been destroyed. I am only saying that Zhuge played a very critical role during that battle in the novel. Many things could have gone wrong if Zhuge didn't help, and to be honest in the novel it seemed to me that alot of Zhou Yu's plans seemed a little short sighted. The fire attack but not taking into account the wind, his plan to attack Yi was based on too many assumptions. Historically Zhou Yu was a very talented general however in the novel he really wasn't good enough to defeat Cao Cao without Zhuge Liang's help.

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:17 pm
by Guan Yunchang
Your all taking this the wrong way. Wu very well could have beaten Wei, but by giving the appearence of helping Wu, Kongming helped himself.

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:09 pm
by Chen Bo
I think Wu need Kongmings help. Novel wise, Zhou Yu was inclined toward submission until Kongming mentioned that Cao Cao wanted to marry the two daughters Qiao, the younger of the two being his wife, which he loved deeply, and the older daughter Sun Ce's wife when he was living. Zhuo Yu would have suggested submission should Kongming not have gone to the southlands(aka Wu))

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:30 pm
by Exar Kun
Lady Wu wrote:You think so? Even in the novel, Zhuge Liang's role isn't that crucial.


In novel,there is no forseeing the wind.Only Kongming summoning it.
So if he wasn't there the wind would not have come.
He was the most important part of the whole plan.

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:51 pm
by Sun Gongli
Okay, if we're talking novelwise, let's take a look at the plan, minus the wind. The wind carries the flames, yes? So, let's say that the wind doesn't blow. Only a few boats are caught on fire. However, thanks to Pang Tong, the ships are chained together. Yes, the chains will not transfer fire from one ship to another (well, most likely, anyway). What they will do, however, is chain the non-damaged ships to the sinking ships. If there were enough of them, they could have any effect - depending on the length of the chain and the depth of the river, they could act as anchors and halt the approach of the Wei navy, or they could have a far more pronounced effect and start bringing other ships down with them. Either way, it still works to Wu's advantage. Worst case, Wu launches fire arrows. They'll take more casualties, and if the wind is blowing the OPPOSITE way, they'll regret it, but there was no wind before Zhuge Liang "summoned" it.

Also, look at the sad shape of Cao Cao's troops. They were sick and demoralized, while Wu had the advantage of naval experience.

Wu could've won without Zhuge Liang. Doesn't mean they would've, but they could've.