Did Wu really need Kong Ming's help?

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Unread postby Chen Bo » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:00 pm

In the defence that Zhou Yu was favoring submission(novel-wise) heres a small part from the Three Kingdoms by Luo Guanzhong, Moss Roberts translation.

Chapter 44

"Cao Cao acts in the name of the Son of Heaven, the Emperor himself," said Zhou Yu. "His host cannot be driven back. His power has grown to the point it would be futile to risk engagment. If we fight, defeat is certain. If we surrender, security is cheaply bought. I have made mt decisiom. Tommorrow before our lord I shall advocate sending a representative to convey our submission"

So I guess you are part right, he didn't like the idea of submission, be he was going to suggest it before Kongming said the two daughter Qiao poem to get Zhou Yu mad.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:22 pm

Though I have a feeling that Zhou Yu was just saying that to test Kongming, to see which side he's on.

It's like Sun Quan asking Lu Meng whether he should attack Xuzhou---SQ wanted to attack Jingzhou from the start, but he just wanted to test Lu Meng and have him suggest Jingzhou and give arguments for that suggestion.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:30 pm

I agree with Lady Wu. Zhou Yu may have suggested surrender, but it was most likely merely to see what Zhuge Liang would respond with. The novel doesn't say what Zhou Yu was thinking, only what he said; and we know that Zhou Yu is not one to accept defeat.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:51 pm

melee wrote:There were only two ways:Fight or Surrender.
You mean Sun Quan would decide to surrender if he was not convinced?
No,the fact that even when he was unsure how many troops wei had,he still decided to fight by giving Wu force to Zhou Yu.
Have you ever seen any king playing a joke with his vassals?


A joke? What are you talking about? In the novel Sun Quan was bouncing back and forth he couldn't decide what to do. Even after He first agreed to fight he still wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do. You think it is impossible for Sun Quan to change his mind? He could easly recal Zhou Yu and decide to surrender at any time. He wouldn't be playing a joke on anyone he could actually change his mind. If he is not totally convinced that he could win then he might not want to risk a battle.
Oh and by the way Sun Quan was not a King at this point. He was the governor of Yang i believe and he was facing off against the most powerful man in the land who had defeated more powerful people then Sun Quan before. The actual possbility of winning if Cao Cao was actually bringing a million men was little to none. Sun Quan has every right to be nervous and it was only when Zhuge Liang sent Zhou Yu back to reassure Sun Quan that Cao Cao had no where near 1,000,000 that Sun Quan become actually convinced that he could win.

melee wrote:Once the chained plot and the fake surrender all were successful,I think Zhou Yu prepared all things(like ships,arrows...) for the fire attack before he realized out the direction of the wind.
The problem was gathering generals and troops when the S-E wind began to blow.I don't think Zhou Yu must spend alot of time for this(about 30-40 minutes?)
Cao Cao was an arrogant man(caocao,i'm sorry),especially after he defeated Ma Chao,it was really difficult for his advisors to convince him unless it had something wrong happening in front of his eyes.
Even Cheng Yu warned him about the direction of the wind,he still laughed and said that it was a common thing.
If you were one of Cao Cao's advisors,what would you say to convince him?

cancel the fire attack?it was ok,Zhou Yu could still find out another way to defeat Wei.And this also didn't need zhuge's help at all.
:oops: :oops:


30-40 minutes to set up a fire attack? What do you think he can call Huang Gai on his cell phone? It would take a mimimum of hours if not days to set up such a massive attack. He would have to inform all the officers that will be in charge of the boats get the dosens if not hudreds of boats that he would need, load them up with cumbustible materials and then have them sail out toward Cao Cao. When Zhou Yu fell ill when he realized the wind was blowing in the wrong direction he had not set any of this up. Plus he had to get a messenger to Cao Cao telling him to expect Huang Gai. It would take at least a day for everything to be set up realisticly 2 days if not 3. And as we know the wind was only going to blow for 3 days (Zhou Yu doesn't know this if no Zhuge Liang).

So Zhou Yu could win without the fire attack? Really and how would he do this? This is the novel remember Cao Cao had 830,000 troops, even if half of them were sick that is still 415,000 troops for Zhou Yu to defeat with his 30,000. Best possible scenario for Wu is that Cao Cao withdraws his troops because of epidemic and withdraws to Jiang Ling. He would have a much stronger rearguard and therefore Zhou Yu will be unable to take Jiang Ling and Liu Bei since he had no ally will not be able to take southern Jing. Cao Cao retains all of Jing and simply preps his navy for a year or two (while his troops get used to the climate) and simply rolls over Wu.
In the novel noo fire attack then Wu is screwed, no Zhuge Liang means no fire attack which means no Zhuge Liang Wu screwed. Now i never claimed that in actual history that Zhuge Liang was necessary because i think that Wu could have won on history on their own. However in the novel Zhuge Liang is one of the main reasons why Wu won. Without him Wu is screwed.

Oh and Cao Cao defeated Ma Chao after Chi Bi not before.
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Unread postby melee » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:18 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:A joke? What are you talking about? In the novel Sun Quan was bouncing back and forth he couldn't decide what to do. Even after He first agreed to fight he still wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do. You think it is impossible for Sun Quan to change his mind? He could easly recal Zhou Yu and decide to surrender at any time. He wouldn't be playing a joke on anyone he could actually change his mind. If he is not totally convinced that he could win then he might not want to risk a battle.
Oh and by the way Sun Quan was not a King at this point. He was the governor of Yang i believe and he was facing off against the most powerful man in the land who had defeated more powerful people then Sun Quan before. The actual possbility of winning if Cao Cao was actually bringing a million men was little to none. Sun Quan has every right to be nervous and it was only when Zhuge Liang sent Zhou Yu back to reassure Sun Quan that Cao Cao had no where near 1,000,000 that Sun Quan become actually convinced that he could win.

Do you remember what did Lu Su talk to Sun Quan:
If people like us servants submitted, we would just return to our village or continue holding our offices, and everything would go on as before. If you submit, whither will you go? You will be created a lord of some humble fief, perhaps. You will have one carriage, no more; one saddle horse, that is all. Your retinue will be some ten. Will you be able to sit facing the south and call yourself by the kingly title of 'The Solitary'? Each one in that crowd of hangers-on is thinking for himself, is purely selfish, and you should not listen to them, but take a line of your own and that quickly. Determine to play a bold game!"

That was the reason why Sun Quan couldn't surender.He had no choice except to fight.If he surrendered,he would loose all.I belive Sun Quan would fight to death,regardless how he was unsure about chance to win.
"King",I mean it's a Lord or a Leader.Sun Quan had given wu force to Zhou Yu,he slashed off a corner of the table by his sword to show all that how he dicide to fight.But then if he called Zhou Yu and said that he didn't want to fight anymore,wasn't this a joke,right?Zhang Zhao,Zhang Hong...would laugh at him.

30-40 minutes to set up a fire attack? What do you think he can call Huang Gai on his cell phone? It would take a mimimum of hours if not days to set up such a massive attack. He would have to inform all the officers that will be in charge of the boats get the dosens if not hudreds of boats that he would need, load them up with cumbustible materials and then have them sail out toward Cao Cao. When Zhou Yu fell ill when he realized the wind was blowing in the wrong direction he had not set any of this up. Plus he had to get a messenger to Cao Cao telling him to expect Huang Gai. It would take at least a day for everything to be set up realisticly 2 days if not 3. And as we know the wind was only going to blow for 3 days (Zhou Yu doesn't know this if no Zhuge Liang).

A naval formation was built up by a person like Zhou Yu made it become easy to defend and quick to attack.And in an army,all orders must be executed at once.When wu attacked Nanjun and Zhou Yu was shot by an arrow,he fell ill.But when a chance came,he still sprang up to go to the front line.
So I don't think he must spend too many time for change the formation from defensive to offensive when the wind began to blow.He would not miss such a good chance.One day?it's too late...

So Zhou Yu could win without the fire attack? Really and how would he do this? This is the novel remember Cao Cao had 830,000 troops, even if half of them were sick that is still 415,000 troops for Zhou Yu to defeat with his 30,000. Best possible scenario for Wu is that Cao Cao withdraws his troops because of epidemic and withdraws to Jiang Ling. He would have a much stronger rearguard and therefore Zhou Yu will be unable to take Jiang Ling and Liu Bei since he had no ally will not be able to take southern Jing. Cao Cao retains all of Jing and simply preps his navy for a year or two (while his troops get used to the climate) and simply rolls over Wu.
In the novel noo fire attack then Wu is screwed, no Zhuge Liang means no fire attack which means no Zhuge Liang Wu screwed. Now i never claimed that in actual history that Zhuge Liang was necessary because i think that Wu could have won on history on their own. However in the novel Zhuge Liang is one of the main reasons why Wu won. Without him Wu is screwed.

well...when wei ships all were chained,wu had no advantage to win in water battle.But wu could still retreat to its cities and defend there.A siege always gives advantage to the defensive.For examples,a siege between Hao Zhao and Zhuge Liang and onother one is between Zhu Huan and Cao Ren.Cao Cao had too many troops,this would make up a big problem of supply.
Oh and Cao Cao defeated Ma Chao after Chi Bi not before.

yeah but didn't cao cao become more arrogant after Tong battle :?
I said that just to make it clear how cao cao was arrogant.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:15 pm

melee wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:A joke? What are you talking about? In the novel Sun Quan was bouncing back and forth he couldn't decide what to do. Even after He first agreed to fight he still wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do. You think it is impossible for Sun Quan to change his mind? He could easly recal Zhou Yu and decide to surrender at any time. He wouldn't be playing a joke on anyone he could actually change his mind. If he is not totally convinced that he could win then he might not want to risk a battle.
Oh and by the way Sun Quan was not a King at this point. He was the governor of Yang i believe and he was facing off against the most powerful man in the land who had defeated more powerful people then Sun Quan before. The actual possbility of winning if Cao Cao was actually bringing a million men was little to none. Sun Quan has every right to be nervous and it was only when Zhuge Liang sent Zhou Yu back to reassure Sun Quan that Cao Cao had no where near 1,000,000 that Sun Quan become actually convinced that he could win.

Do you remember what did Lu Su talk to Sun Quan:
If people like us servants submitted, we would just return to our village or continue holding our offices, and everything would go on as before. If you submit, whither will you go? You will be created a lord of some humble fief, perhaps. You will have one carriage, no more; one saddle horse, that is all. Your retinue will be some ten. Will you be able to sit facing the south and call yourself by the kingly title of 'The Solitary'? Each one in that crowd of hangers-on is thinking for himself, is purely selfish, and you should not listen to them, but take a line of your own and that quickly. Determine to play a bold game!"

That was the reason why Sun Quan couldn't surender.He had no choice except to fight.If he surrendered,he would loose all.I belive Sun Quan would fight to death,regardless how he was unsure about chance to win.
"King",I mean it's a Lord or a Leader.Sun Quan had given wu force to Zhou Yu,he slashed off a corner of the table by his sword to show all that how he dicide to fight.But then if he called Zhou Yu and said that he didn't want to fight anymore,wasn't this a joke,right?Zhang Zhao,Zhang Hong...would laugh at him.

30-40 minutes to set up a fire attack? What do you think he can call Huang Gai on his cell phone? It would take a mimimum of hours if not days to set up such a massive attack. He would have to inform all the officers that will be in charge of the boats get the dosens if not hudreds of boats that he would need, load them up with cumbustible materials and then have them sail out toward Cao Cao. When Zhou Yu fell ill when he realized the wind was blowing in the wrong direction he had not set any of this up. Plus he had to get a messenger to Cao Cao telling him to expect Huang Gai. It would take at least a day for everything to be set up realisticly 2 days if not 3. And as we know the wind was only going to blow for 3 days (Zhou Yu doesn't know this if no Zhuge Liang).

A naval formation was built up by a person like Zhou Yu made it become easy to defend and quick to attack.And in an army,all orders must be executed at once.When wu attacked Nanjun and Zhou Yu was shot by an arrow,he fell ill.But when a chance came,he still sprang up to go to the front line.
So I don't think he must spend too many time for change the formation from defensive to offensive when the wind began to blow.He would not miss such a good chance.One day?it's too late...

So Zhou Yu could win without the fire attack? Really and how would he do this? This is the novel remember Cao Cao had 830,000 troops, even if half of them were sick that is still 415,000 troops for Zhou Yu to defeat with his 30,000. Best possible scenario for Wu is that Cao Cao withdraws his troops because of epidemic and withdraws to Jiang Ling. He would have a much stronger rearguard and therefore Zhou Yu will be unable to take Jiang Ling and Liu Bei since he had no ally will not be able to take southern Jing. Cao Cao retains all of Jing and simply preps his navy for a year or two (while his troops get used to the climate) and simply rolls over Wu.
In the novel noo fire attack then Wu is screwed, no Zhuge Liang means no fire attack which means no Zhuge Liang Wu screwed. Now i never claimed that in actual history that Zhuge Liang was necessary because i think that Wu could have won on history on their own. However in the novel Zhuge Liang is one of the main reasons why Wu won. Without him Wu is screwed.

well...when wei ships all were chained,wu had no advantage to win in water battle.But wu could still retreat to its cities and defend there.A siege always gives advantage to the defensive.For examples,a siege between Hao Zhao and Zhuge Liang and onother one is between Zhu Huan and Cao Ren.Cao Cao had too many troops,this would make up a big problem of supply.
Oh and Cao Cao defeated Ma Chao after Chi Bi not before.

yeah but didn't cao cao become more arrogant after Tong battle :?
I said that just to make it clear how cao cao was arrogant.


Why the hell would Zhang Zhao laugh at Sun Quan if he surrendered? That is what he was advising him to do. The plain fact is that after he gave Zhou Yu command he still wasn't sure about his decison. If all of the pro war people left to fight then there would be no one to argue for it. Then Zhang Zhao and the others would be alone with Sun Quan preying on his fears and doubts. Since there would be no one around to tell him otherwise in his confused state he would eventually listen to this advice an recal Zhou Yu. Perhaps Zhou Yu would be able to convince Sun Quan to fight after being recalled but you are totally wrong about Sun Quan being totally comitted to fighitng before ZHou Yu had his second talk about Cao Cao's troop numbers.

I never said the orders would go out a day later. I said actually completing the orders would be done by that time. These were boats opperated by people rowing oars. To rearrign a fleet of that size takes time. To prepare fire ships takes time. To get someone to see Cao Cao and tell him that Huang Gai is coming takes time because they have to wait for the messanger to come back to let them know everything is ready. The soldiers have to be preped to fight. They have to rest up and be ready to charge. They have to wait and see if the fire attack has worked before charging. Plus if Zhou Yu begain scrabbling around changing his formation and suddenly huang Gai's messanger arrives Cao Cao is going to get suspicious. This event was timed to perfection, they knew the fire attack was coming on a particular day and when that day came there were totally ready. It would be impossible for them to get ready in such a short amount of time and not tip off Cao Cao to their plans. What he hell do you think Cao Cao will see. "hmm i just got a messanger that told me that Huang Gai would be coming soon and the Wu army is shifting their entire formation. I wonder if these two things are related." Cao Cao while sure of himself isn't stupid. He would see that if the Wu army is reforming and Huang Gai is going to defect all in one day he would know what is happening. They would have to wait at least until the fleet is reformed to send out the messanger and then Cao Cao has to send the messenger back with the ok plus then they have sail out. This all takes time or else Cao Cao will figure out the plan.

Retreat? Retreat wasn't an option esspecially if Sun Quan wasn't sure if he trully wanted to fight. If he was unsure of his ability to win, plus having Zhang Zhao and others constantly telling him to surrender then seeing Zhuo Yu retreat from battle what the hell do you think will be going through Sun Quan's head? Reteating would instantly prove that the surrender faction was right and the pro war faction was wrong. This would totally convince Sun Quan to surrender. Plus if Cao Cao can create basecamps on the southern side of the river they now control the river. Thus they can ship supplies from Jing to support the army in any attack. In the novel plus no Zhuge Liang retreat means instant defeat. They would have to win on the water or it is all over.

However since tong gate was after Chi Bi the amount of arrogence that he might have gained from this victory would have no baring on an earlier battle. Thus making it meanlinless in this conversation.
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Unread postby melee » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:09 am

1.Zhang Zhao or anyone else would not dare to convince Sun Quan to surrender after he said:
"Let any other person mention surrender, and he shall be served as I have served this table!"

And once Sun Quan said that,he could not betray his words either.
...
2.You don't understand how is a naval/battle formation.You say,how it will go if the enemy comes suddenly?

3.Retreating doesn't mean Surrender.
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