Did Wu really need Kong Ming's help?

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Unread postby Zhang Shu » Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:29 pm

i think kong ming was the key to winning the battle of chibi. if he hadnt moved zhou yu to anger with his little two qiao poem, sun quan might have actually surrendered to cao(just maybe). if zhuge liang had not borrowed the 100,000 arrows from cao cao, the southlands would be short of arrows to fight the north anyways.

even though kongming and zhouyu thought the same idea of using fire, it was kongming who knew and sacrificed that a wind would come on the 22nd of the month and had zilong wait for him. it was the combined efforts of zhou yu, kong ming, and especially pang tong who made the scheme of fire work.

the battle, however, would not only be creditted to zhuge liang and zhou yu, loyalists like huang gai and kan ze also were vital to make the scheme as a whole to execute and be able to defeat cao's 830,000.
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Unread postby EmperorWei » Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:36 pm

Zhou Yu wasnt going to surrender to Cao Cao :lol: ,he was just enraged by what Kong Ming said about Cao Cao wanting the two Qiaos. Zhou Yu would never surrender to Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:05 am

Exar Kun wrote:
Lady Wu wrote:You think so? Even in the novel, Zhuge Liang's role isn't that crucial.


In novel,there is no forseeing the wind.Only Kongming summoning it.

The same way he "summoned" the fog for the arrow-borrowing... :roll:

Chapter 49:

"The winter's yin phase is spent; the yang now begins its cycle. A southeast wind is quite normal." -- Cao Cao.

Meterology 101.

Furthermore, if Kongming really could summon the wind, why didn't he do something about the rain in Shangfang Gorge?

Re: Zhou Yu-- if you read between the lines, you'll see that Zhou Yu was all for war from the beginning to the end. If he was inclined towards submission, why on earth was he training the navy in Lake Poyang (which is where he was when Lady Wu told Sun Quan to consult him)? Why was he smiling cynically when the Wu officers came in in waves to present their views? Check also how he intentionally told Zhuge Liang that he wanted to surrender--a move to force Zhuge to show his cards.
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Unread postby EmperorWei » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:41 am

Do you think it was stupid of Zhou Yu to become so jealous of Zhuge Liang's talents? If Zhou Yu didn't hate Zhuge Liang so much,he could've used his skills and knowledge for the benefit of Wu later on after the Battle of Chibi.
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Unread postby melee » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:25 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Well in the novel even after Zhou Yu orignally talked to Sun Quan it was only Zhuge Liang who forsaw that Sun Quan was stil not totally convinced. Zhuge Liang had to send Zhuo Yu back to further convince Sun Quan.

no problem,sun quan had already given wu force to zhou yu at that time.
so regardless how quan was not convinced,it only needed determination from zhou yu.
otherwise,sun quan could still ask zhou yu about his worry.
With the fire attack remember that Zhuo Yu became ill when he figured out that the wind was blowing the wrong way. He only recovered when Zhuge Liang convinced him that he could make the wind blow. If Zhuo Yu was still ill when the wind began to blow then there is a good chance that he would not be able to take advantage of it quickly enough before Cao Cao became did something to counter this threat.

no,
when the wind began to blow,cheng yu warned cao cao of a danger but cao cao still didn't realize out the plot.
and only till huang gai's ships came and cheng yu told caocao about his doubt,caocao just realized.

With the close combat are you saying that Sun Quan's troops climbed aboard the burning ships? They raked them with arrows until they got to the other side where they could actually fight hand to hand. However you are right that most of the damage that Sun Quan's soldiers did was in face to face combat the arrow thing wasn't as important as it is made to seem.

agree...wen pin was shot by arrows when he tried to stop gai's ships but don't tell me that wu couldn't make out any an arrow.

Don't get me wrong i don't think that the victory credit should go to Zhuge Liang alone. Wu had to be there or else Liu Bei an Zhuge Liang would have been destroyed. I am only saying that Zhuge played a very critical role during that battle in the novel. Many things could have gone wrong if Zhuge didn't help, and to be honest in the novel it seemed to me that alot of Zhou Yu's plans seemed a little short sighted. The fire attack but not taking into account the wind, his plan to attack Yi was based on too many assumptions. Historically Zhou Yu was a very talented general however in the novel he really wasn't good enough to defeat Cao Cao without Zhuge Liang's help.

but how sad,i think wu could still win without zhuge's help :cry:

LW wrote:Furthermore, if Kongming really could summon the wind, why didn't he do something about the rain in Shangfang Gorge?

the shangfang rain was only a sudden one.It had no any a period.It can't be compared with the wind in chibi.

EW wrote:Do you think it was stupid of Zhou Yu to become so jealous of Zhuge Liang's talents? If Zhou Yu didn't hate Zhuge Liang so much,he could've used his skills and knowledge for the benefit of Wu later on after the Battle of Chibi.

yeah...he should do like lu xun did:saying that zhuge is really a sleeping dragon and then tried to restrain zhuge's advance on wei. :)
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:47 pm

Lady Wu wrote:The same way he "summoned" the fog for the arrow-borrowing... :roll:

Chapter 49:

"The winter's yin phase is spent; the yang now begins its cycle. A southeast wind is quite normal." -- Cao Cao.

Meterology 101.

Furthermore, if Kongming really could summon the wind, why didn't he do something about the rain in Shangfang Gorge?


1)Like it or not:he summoned it.Kongming was shown to possess supernatural abilities like how he was able to counter the Nanman guy's magic.
2)Just because he can summon something doesn't mean he can make it go away(the rain.) :P
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Unread postby melee » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:56 am

Exar Kun wrote:2)Just because he can summon something doesn't mean he can make it go away(the rain.) :P

:oops: although he can't make it go away but if he had known when the rain went down,he would have never tricked sima yi into shangfang at that time,he would have chosen another time. :oops: :oops:
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:50 am

melee wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Well in the novel even after Zhou Yu orignally talked to Sun Quan it was only Zhuge Liang who forsaw that Sun Quan was stil not totally convinced. Zhuge Liang had to send Zhuo Yu back to further convince Sun Quan.

no problem,sun quan had already given wu force to zhou yu at that time.
so regardless how quan was not convinced,it only needed determination from zhou yu.
otherwise,sun quan could still ask zhou yu about his worry.
With the fire attack remember that Zhuo Yu became ill when he figured out that the wind was blowing the wrong way. He only recovered when Zhuge Liang convinced him that he could make the wind blow. If Zhuo Yu was still ill when the wind began to blow then there is a good chance that he would not be able to take advantage of it quickly enough before Cao Cao became did something to counter this threat.

no,
when the wind began to blow,cheng yu warned cao cao of a danger but cao cao still didn't realize out the plot.
and only till huang gai's ships came and cheng yu told caocao about his doubt,caocao just realized.

With the close combat are you saying that Sun Quan's troops climbed aboard the burning ships? They raked them with arrows until they got to the other side where they could actually fight hand to hand. However you are right that most of the damage that Sun Quan's soldiers did was in face to face combat the arrow thing wasn't as important as it is made to seem.

agree...wen pin was shot by arrows when he tried to stop gai's ships but don't tell me that wu couldn't make out any an arrow.

Don't get me wrong i don't think that the victory credit should go to Zhuge Liang alone. Wu had to be there or else Liu Bei an Zhuge Liang would have been destroyed. I am only saying that Zhuge played a very critical role during that battle in the novel. Many things could have gone wrong if Zhuge didn't help, and to be honest in the novel it seemed to me that alot of Zhou Yu's plans seemed a little short sighted. The fire attack but not taking into account the wind, his plan to attack Yi was based on too many assumptions. Historically Zhou Yu was a very talented general however in the novel he really wasn't good enough to defeat Cao Cao without Zhuge Liang's help.

but how sad,i think wu could still win without zhuge's help :cry:

LW wrote:Furthermore, if Kongming really could summon the wind, why didn't he do something about the rain in Shangfang Gorge?

the shangfang rain was only a sudden one.It had no any a period.It can't be compared with the wind in chibi.

EW wrote:Do you think it was stupid of Zhou Yu to become so jealous of Zhuge Liang's talents? If Zhou Yu didn't hate Zhuge Liang so much,he could've used his skills and knowledge for the benefit of Wu later on after the Battle of Chibi.

yeah...he should do like lu xun did:saying that zhuge is really a sleeping dragon and then tried to restrain zhuge's advance on wei. :)


1. However if Sun Quan isn't sure he might not give as many troops, might change his mind. He could still decide that they couldn't win. He was afraid of Cao Cao's army still and it took the second talking to for him to be fully commited. An unsure ruler can easily change his mind. Also remember after Zhou Yu leaves with the rest of the pro war people the anti war people can step in and further convince Sun Quan not to fight. That second talking to was definitly needed.

2. You didn't read what i wrote. If Zhou Yu didn't know about the wind he couldn't prepare for it. Thus when the day of the winds came (if the winds came at all) he would then have to quickly summon Huang Gai to set sail and move against Wei. It was because of ZHuge Liang that he knew which day to strike and prepared for it. If he wasn't prepared then his attack would have been delayed. Thus giving Cao Cao's advisors more time to convince him to be wary of the winds. Zhou Yu fell ill when he realized that the winds were going in the wrong direction, this might even cause him to cancel the fire attack totally since the fire attack would never work with the wind pointing back at his own forces.

3. I am not exactly sure what you are saying here. But i am sure that Wu had enough arrows already to acompish the part that arrows would have played. I am saying that Wu didn't need Zhuge Liang for this thing.

4. Well when it comes to history i do think that Wu could have won on it's own. However since the novel is extreemly bias toward Zhuge Liang there would be a good chance that Wu would have lost or at least negotiated a peace treaty with Cao Cao in the novel.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:34 am

ZL was essential facilitating the alliance. Although Liu Bei was no doubt the weaker part of the alliance he had control of Jiangxia and Liu Qi's troops and all the defected officers. Cao Cao was aiming at Wu first so for Sun Quan, an ally against Cao Cao can only be a good thing.

Other than ZL did Liu Bei have any other trusted premium-grade advisors?
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Unread postby melee » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:33 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:1. However if Sun Quan isn't sure he might not give as many troops, might change his mind. He could still decide that they couldn't win. He was afraid of Cao Cao's army still and it took the second talking to for him to be fully commited. An unsure ruler can easily change his mind. Also remember after Zhou Yu leaves with the rest of the pro war people the anti war people can step in and further convince Sun Quan not to fight. That second talking to was definitly needed.

There were only two ways:Fight or Surrender.
You mean Sun Quan would decide to surrender if he was not convinced?
No,the fact that even when he was unsure how many troops wei had,he still decided to fight by giving Wu force to Zhou Yu.
Have you ever seen any king playing a joke with his vassals?

2. You didn't read what i wrote. If Zhou Yu didn't know about the wind he couldn't prepare for it. Thus when the day of the winds came (if the winds came at all) he would then have to quickly summon Huang Gai to set sail and move against Wei. It was because of ZHuge Liang that he knew which day to strike and prepared for it. If he wasn't prepared then his attack would have been delayed. Thus giving Cao Cao's advisors more time to convince him to be wary of the winds. Zhou Yu fell ill when he realized that the winds were going in the wrong direction, this might even cause him to cancel the fire attack totally since the fire attack would never work with the wind pointing back at his own forces.

Once the chained plot and the fake surrender all were successful,I think Zhou Yu prepared all things(like ships,arrows...) for the fire attack before he realized out the direction of the wind.
The problem was gathering generals and troops when the S-E wind began to blow.I don't think Zhou Yu must spend alot of time for this(about 30-40 minutes?)
Cao Cao was an arrogant man(caocao,i'm sorry),especially after he defeated Ma Chao,it was really difficult for his advisors to convince him unless it had something wrong happening in front of his eyes.
Even Cheng Yu warned him about the direction of the wind,he still laughed and said that it was a common thing.
If you were one of Cao Cao's advisors,what would you say to convince him?

cancel the fire attack?it was ok,Zhou Yu could still find out another way to defeat Wei.And this also didn't need zhuge's help at all.
:oops: :oops:
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