Did Wu really need Kong Ming's help?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Did Wu really need Kong Ming's help?

Unread postby EmperorWei » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:33 am

Did Wu really need the help of Kong Ming before the Battle of Chibi. Sun Quan had many talented and capable advisors and Generals like Zhou Yu,Chuko Chin,Yu Fan,Huang Gai,and Gan Ning. Was Kong Ming really necessary in helping Wu aganist Cao Cao?
"I do not fear an army of lions being led by a sheep,but do I fear an army of sheep led by a lion"-Alexander the Great
User avatar
EmperorWei
Master
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:33 am
Location: Canada,B.C.

Unread postby Wo Long » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:19 am

No, but then again, Kongming didn't help. He only gave them info and said that the southeast wind would blow. That's all. So no they didn't need the help that he never gave to them. Now Pang Tong, he helped them with the chain-the-ships-together ploy. That sneaky little weasel!
Me Blog.
Restore the Ming Dynasty in Beijing!
User avatar
Wo Long
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1414
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:51 am

Unread postby Jaing_Wei12 » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:15 pm

I beleive that they did. Im sure Kongming gave them more advice than the wind was going to blow. This was a highly important battle and Zhuge was the best advisor of his time, I think he would have given more advice.
In the end, strategy will prevail!
User avatar
Jaing_Wei12
Student
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:09 pm
Location: In Front of the PS2 or Xbox,or Computer...Do you men right this moment?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:48 pm

Novelwise then yes Wu could have never won if Zhuge didn't help them.
Historywise, well they probably would have won anyway. Depending on which bios you believe Zhuge either did pretty much nothing or he was essential in convincing Sun Quan to fight.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2526
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:40 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Novelwise then yes Wu could have never won if Zhuge didn't help them.

You think so? Even in the novel, Zhuge Liang's role isn't that crucial. Sure, Sun Quan doubted, but Zhou Yu and Lu Su never did, and those are the people Sun Quan really relied on. Zhuge Liang didn't turn them from "doubting" to "non-doubting", but only strengthened their resolve to fight. Not to say that that isn't important, but it's not like they would have surrendered if it weren't for him.

Regarding the fire attack: Zhou Yu and Huang Gai thought of the plan independently of Zhuge Liang. They might not have foreseen the day of the wind, but they would have taken advantage of the day when the southeast wind started blowing anyway. The chaining scheme is Pang Tong's, and he was a Wu officer at that time.

Regarding the arrows: After the fire starts burning, it's close-contact combat, and arrows are of little use.

Also don't forget that Wu won the first skirmish against the North.

Zhuge Liang's arrival in Wu might have sped things up, but I don't think it was essential to Wu's survival.
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
 
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:51 pm

Lady Wu wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Novelwise then yes Wu could have never won if Zhuge didn't help them.

You think so? Even in the novel, Zhuge Liang's role isn't that crucial. Sure, Sun Quan doubted, but Zhou Yu and Lu Su never did, and those are the people Sun Quan really relied on. Zhuge Liang didn't turn them from "doubting" to "non-doubting", but only strengthened their resolve to fight. Not to say that that isn't important, but it's not like they would have surrendered if it weren't for him.

Regarding the fire attack: Zhou Yu and Huang Gai thought of the plan independently of Zhuge Liang. They might not have foreseen the day of the wind, but they would have taken advantage of the day when the southeast wind started blowing anyway. The chaining scheme is Pang Tong's, and he was a Wu officer at that time.

Regarding the arrows: After the fire starts burning, it's close-contact combat, and arrows are of little use.

Also don't forget that Wu won the first skirmish against the North.

Zhuge Liang's arrival in Wu might have sped things up, but I don't think it was essential to Wu's survival.


Well in the novel even after Zhou Yu orignally talked to Sun Quan it was only Zhuge Liang who forsaw that Sun Quan was stil not totally convinced. Zhuge Liang had to send Zhuo Yu back to further convince Sun Quan.

With the fire attack remember that Zhuo Yu became ill when he figured out that the wind was blowing the wrong way. He only recovered when Zhuge Liang convinced him that he could make the wind blow. If Zhuo Yu was still ill when the wind began to blow then there is a good chance that he would not be able to take advantage of it quickly enough before Cao Cao became did something to counter this threat.

With the close combat are you saying that Sun Quan's troops climbed aboard the burning ships? They raked them with arrows until they got to the other side where they could actually fight hand to hand. However you are right that most of the damage that Sun Quan's soldiers did was in face to face combat the arrow thing wasn't as important as it is made to seem.

I will never deny that Wu won the first skirmish. However wasn't the first skirmish done by 5,000 men who weren't used to navel combat? Liu Yao could have defeated that force :P

Don't get me wrong i don't think that the victory credit should go to Zhuge Liang alone. Wu had to be there or else Liu Bei an Zhuge Liang would have been destroyed. I am only saying that Zhuge played a very critical role during that battle in the novel. Many things could have gone wrong if Zhuge didn't help, and to be honest in the novel it seemed to me that alot of Zhou Yu's plans seemed a little short sighted. The fire attack but not taking into account the wind, his plan to attack Yi was based on too many assumptions. Historically Zhou Yu was a very talented general however in the novel he really wasn't good enough to defeat Cao Cao without Zhuge Liang's help.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2526
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Guan Yunchang » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:17 pm

Your all taking this the wrong way. Wu very well could have beaten Wei, but by giving the appearence of helping Wu, Kongming helped himself.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea.
All we do, crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see.
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind.
Rest in piece Liao Hua.
User avatar
Guan Yunchang
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:40 am
Location: Rest in peace good buddy. I only hope you missed me as much as I miss you now.

Unread postby Chen Bo » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:09 pm

I think Wu need Kongmings help. Novel wise, Zhou Yu was inclined toward submission until Kongming mentioned that Cao Cao wanted to marry the two daughters Qiao, the younger of the two being his wife, which he loved deeply, and the older daughter Sun Ce's wife when he was living. Zhuo Yu would have suggested submission should Kongming not have gone to the southlands(aka Wu))
Chen Bo
Tyro
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:52 pm

Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:30 pm

Lady Wu wrote:You think so? Even in the novel, Zhuge Liang's role isn't that crucial.


In novel,there is no forseeing the wind.Only Kongming summoning it.
So if he wasn't there the wind would not have come.
He was the most important part of the whole plan.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Sun Gongli » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:51 pm

Okay, if we're talking novelwise, let's take a look at the plan, minus the wind. The wind carries the flames, yes? So, let's say that the wind doesn't blow. Only a few boats are caught on fire. However, thanks to Pang Tong, the ships are chained together. Yes, the chains will not transfer fire from one ship to another (well, most likely, anyway). What they will do, however, is chain the non-damaged ships to the sinking ships. If there were enough of them, they could have any effect - depending on the length of the chain and the depth of the river, they could act as anchors and halt the approach of the Wei navy, or they could have a far more pronounced effect and start bringing other ships down with them. Either way, it still works to Wu's advantage. Worst case, Wu launches fire arrows. They'll take more casualties, and if the wind is blowing the OPPOSITE way, they'll regret it, but there was no wind before Zhuge Liang "summoned" it.

Also, look at the sad shape of Cao Cao's troops. They were sick and demoralized, while Wu had the advantage of naval experience.

Wu could've won without Zhuge Liang. Doesn't mean they would've, but they could've.
"There are those who try to shape the world to their own whim,
and then there are those who allow the world to shape them.
It is in the balance that greatness is achieved."
User avatar
Sun Gongli
Poo Poo Pants
 
Posts: 4058
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:56 am
Location: Spies destroy everything I create!

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved