Discussion of Heroes, Cao Cao's desire, Liu Bei's ambition.

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Discussion of Heroes, Cao Cao's desire, Liu Bei's ambition.

Unread postby Xue Yu Fengsheng » Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:57 am

This is only my stupid interpretation about the discussion of Heroes.

I think there are two points I can extract about Liu Bei and Cao Cao :

1. In the discussion, it's pretty obvious that Cao Cao was trying to gain Liu Bei's heart not as his follower but as his friends and as equal partner in restoring the Han, why ?
Well, if Cao Cao considered as a rival, I don't think he would give Liu Bei an army when he asked one. Plus when he gave this army, he did it without any doubt. Meng De just gave Liu Bei the army and sent him away to fight Yuan Shu without thinking. Surely a person like Cao Cao wouldn't give a large army to a person like Liu Bei if he didn't trust him as a friend.

2. Let me quote :
Liu Bei replied, "I have been a bird in a cage, a fish in a net. This is like the fish regaining the open sea and the bird soaring into the blue sky. I suffered much from the confinement."

IMHO, this lines are very good sign on how ambitious Liu Bei was. It was his desire to start his own kingdom. Surely not the person we all know who used tears as his weapon.

What do you think ?
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Wed Sep 04, 2002 5:39 am

I'd like to argue the fact that they are not heroes. heh..
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Unread postby Dennis » Wed Sep 04, 2002 5:54 am

Jonny be nice.

I think that Cao Cao had to get Liu Bei out of the political court, because in the centre he could gain too many friends and too much influence, with an army he could do either a) Cao Cao's work for him, or b) give Cao Cao a legitimate reason to destroy him, both of which Mengde would probably have done.

I do agree with your Liu Bei statement though, very perceptive.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:01 am

Cao Cao made a critical error in judgement with letting Liu Bei live all the time he was in Xu Chang. From his perspective it would have saved him a lot of grief.
I don't think it was because Cao Cao respected Liu Bei as "hero" but because as we read in his bio, Cao Cao was fond of the hunt, and I am sure he loved hunting little Liu Beis. :twisted:
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:17 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Cao Cao made a critical error in judgement with letting Liu Bei live all the time he was in Xu Chang. From his perspective it would have saved him a lot of grief.
I don't think it was because Cao Cao respected Liu Bei as "hero" but because as we read in his bio, Cao Cao was fond of the hunt, and I am sure he loved hunting little Liu Beis. :twisted:


Yeah. Cao Cao should have done away with a rat like Liu Bei a long time ago. Now I'm not sure whether it was Cheng Yu or Guo Jia who advised Cao Cao to kill Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:18 am

Pang Shiyuan wrote:
Zhou Gongjin wrote:Cao Cao made a critical error in judgement with letting Liu Bei live all the time he was in Xu Chang. From his perspective it would have saved him a lot of grief.
I don't think it was because Cao Cao respected Liu Bei as "hero" but because as we read in his bio, Cao Cao was fond of the hunt, and I am sure he loved hunting little Liu Beis. :twisted:


Yeah. Cao Cao should have done away with a rat like Liu Bei a long time ago. Now I'm not sure whether it was Cheng Yu or Guo Jia who advised Cao Cao to kill Liu Bei.


Wasn't it Xun Yu? :lol:
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:25 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Wasn't it Xun Yu? :lol:


I'm not sure. In the Wei-Jin history book, it was Cheng Yu who told Cao Cao to get rid of Liu Bei while he could. But Cao refused (probably the biggest mistake of his entire life).
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Unread postby Xue Yu Fengsheng » Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:25 am

So it is true that Liu Bei was really an ambitious man. No different and no better than other warlords.
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Unread postby Xue Yu Fengsheng » Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:28 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I'd like to argue the fact that they are not heroes. heh..


Why ?

Who is the hero in your opinion ?
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Unread postby Han Xin » Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:42 am

Xue Yu Fengsheng wrote:
Zhou Gongjin wrote:I'd like to argue the fact that they are not heroes. heh..


Why ?

Who is the hero in your opinion ?


All three rulers were mass murderers. However, if I have to choose:

Cao Cao = over-rated, only beat morons in military campaigns, a wicked person.
Liu Bei = Backstabber, Traitor, First rebel of the Han.
Sun Quan= Although not very good in military wise (well atleast better than Zhuge Liang :lol: ), he twice goes against the will of the majority and brought great success to Wu. He was nice enough to lend JiangLing to Liu Bei which basically kickstart the Shu Kingdom.

So my picked was Sun Quan and Glorious WU.

Zhou Gongjin: Thanks Q, I couldn't say it better myself... :lol:

Xue Yu Fengsheng wrote:So it is true that Liu Bei was really an ambitious man. No different and no better than other warlords.


No-one during warring time could afford to be a nice guy (take Han Fu as a good example). Liu Bei was very close to Tao Qian (who was never an old weak old man as was describe in SGYY, more like Dong Zhou). When Tao Qian left XuZhou to Liu Bei, he also left behind a few thousand Northern Tribesman (Mercenary) for Liu Bei while the people of XuZhou was starving. Liu Bei never fired these Mercenary but keep on employing them. How could one say that Liu Bei was not as ambitious...
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