Liu Shan: a Remarkable Person?

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Unread postby Antiochus » Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:54 am

Liu Shan is one of the main actors of Shu's downfall. If he would have been a stronger leader, maybe he could have given more support to Jiang Wei during his northen campaigns and BEFORE EACH CAMPAIGN. What I mean was that Jiang Wei had to fight agaisnt the Shu court to permit the attack. If Liu Shan had been a stronger ruler. Maybe he would have gotten the nessesary support to do a good offencive.
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Unread postby man4422 » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:16 pm

Six_and_Up wrote:Huang Hao only took power when Jiang Wan, Fei Yi and Dong Yun all had died.


Even if Huang Hao have not appear before that, Liu Shan seems to listen to other eunuch also.

There are rumours from outside that one eunuch told Liu Shan, saying that Zhuge Liang was ambitious and might overtake his power over him one day. The eunuch think it is advisable to remove his military power. This cause Liu shan to send a emperor edict to Zhuge Liang to return back to Chengdu. Zhuge Liang, whom when thought of good opportunity to invade chang'an, was forced to return back to court. He guessed correctly that was the traitor, Gou An, who spread the rumours.

This story have shown that there is still someone to guide Liu Shan to become a good ruler and choose the correct advice, the correct man to listen. If Zhuge Liang had advise Jiang Wan, Dong Yun or Fei Yi to keep close to Liu Shan, prevent eunches from getting close to Liu Shan, things might change.

After Jiang Wan, Dong Yun or Fei Yi died, there are still other official who can assign this task. If no one was being assigned the task to take care of Liu Shan, these advisors have taught Liu Shan for so many years, should believed Liu Shan become more decisive and know what is right what is wrong.

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Unread postby Zhilong » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:22 pm

man4422 wrote:
After Jiang Wan, Dong Yun or Fei Yi died, there are still other official who can assign this task. If no one was being assigned the task to take care of Liu Shan, these advisors have taught Liu Shan for so many years, should believed Liu Shan become more decisive and know what is right what is wrong.

Rgds
man4422


Qiao Zhou and others advised him to not get lost in luxuries, neglect the affairs of the state and let Huang Hao have free rein. He got demoted for his trouble. Others also failed and knew it was hopeless.

He lets Jiang Wei continue his pointless campaigns and devastatingly change the Hanzhong defences.

When Jiang Wei warns of an invasion he supresses this info from the court, and relies on witchcraft to repel the troops. He takes approx 6 months before he actually despatches troops.
"You weaver of mats! You plaiter of straw shoes! You have been smart enough to get possession of a large region and elbow your way into the ranks of the nobles. I was just going to attack you, and now you dare to scheme against me! How I detest you!"
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Unread postby Zu Mao the Brave » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:25 pm

I think the decay of shu began when Guan Yu died, and they lost that province
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Unread postby Zhang Shu » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:14 am

u kno sometimes i think liu xuande mentally injured liu shan when he hurled him at foot of zhao zilong. i think the impact might have caused eh dou to act like he does in the TV series.

I think the decay of shu began when Guan Yu died, and they lost that province


well... the kingdom of shu wasnt created until after Yunchang's death...

but i think the real decay of shu began a little while after liu shan succeeded his father, xuande.

and when do i get promoted from an apprentice... :?

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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:19 am

Zhang Shu wrote:u kno sometimes i think liu xuande mentally injured liu shan when he hurled him at foot of zhao zilong. i think the impact might have caused eh dou to act like he does in the TV series.

I think the decay of shu began when Guan Yu died, and they lost that province


well... the kingdom of shu wasnt created until after Yunchang's death...

but i think the real decay of shu began a little while after liu shan succeeded his father, xuande.

and when do i get promoted from an apprentice... :?

ModEdit: two posts combined. ~LW


Well actually i believe that Liu Bei was the King of Han Zhong before Guan Yu died so you could say the kingdom of Shu existed but not the empire.
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Unread postby man4422 » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:38 am

If Liu Shan was taught by Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang to be righteous and decisive since very young, he shouldnt be useless in the later period. Huang Hao wont appear then.

Another factor that cause such tradegy ending for Shu kingdom is the environment. If there is no luxuries to lure Liu Shan to be desired to spend his whole life fooling around, Liu Shan might be a competent ruler as his father.
Zhilong wrote:
man4422 wrote:
After Jiang Wan, Dong Yun or Fei Yi died, there are still other official who can assign this task. If no one was being assigned the task to take care of Liu Shan, these advisors have taught Liu Shan for so many years, should believed Liu Shan become more decisive and know what is right what is wrong.

Rgds
man4422


Qiao Zhou and others advised him to not get lost in luxuries, neglect the affairs of the state and let Huang Hao have free rein. He got demoted for his trouble. Others also failed and knew it was hopeless.

He lets Jiang Wei continue his pointless campaigns and devastatingly change the Hanzhong defences.

When Jiang Wei warns of an invasion he supresses this info from the court, and relies on witchcraft to repel the troops. He takes approx 6 months before he actually despatches troops.


If I were a loyal general, I might secretly killed Huang Hao. Though I might be jailed or get killed. However, if that saved Liu Shan not to rely on Huang Hao, I am worth to die.

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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:38 am

Liu Shan had tutors. He was more fortunate than almost everyone else in Shu. He can hardly cite, poor education as an excuse. Liu Bei & Zhuge Liang both left him with advice on being righteous etc but did he listen? No.

All Emperors enjoy luxury, it is a perk of the job unless you purposely forego it like that Yue King in Warring States period or are deprived of it for some other reason. Other Emperors can rule well whilst living in luxury.

If you are going to sacrifice yourself kill Liu Shan not Huang Hao. There are a million more asswipes like Huang Hao. One good Emperor will negate their influence. At least the heir to Liu Shan sure as hell could not be any worse.
"You weaver of mats! You plaiter of straw shoes! You have been smart enough to get possession of a large region and elbow your way into the ranks of the nobles. I was just going to attack you, and now you dare to scheme against me! How I detest you!"
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Unread postby man4422 » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:29 pm

Zhilong wrote:Liu Shan had tutors. He was more fortunate than almost everyone else in Shu. He can hardly cite, poor education as an excuse. Liu Bei & Zhuge Liang both left him with advice on being righteous etc but did he listen? No.

All Emperors enjoy luxury, it is a perk of the job unless you purposely forego it like that Yue King in Warring States period or are deprived of it for some other reason. Other Emperors can rule well whilst living in luxury.

If you are going to sacrifice yourself kill Liu Shan not Huang Hao. There are a million more asswipes like Huang Hao. One good Emperor will negate their influence. At least the heir to Liu Shan sure as hell could not be any worse.


If Zhao Yun did not manage to find or didnt bring back A-dou to Liu Bei, A-dou or Liu Shan wont be able to become the successor of Liu Bei. By right he should be left behind. Giving him ability to support Liu Bei is destroying the life span of Shu kingdom. If Liu Shan is a commoner, he might start from scratch to learn from poverty.

Killing one's ruler is just rebel against your own country, and is no difference with a traitor. Wei Yan is one example, He killed his own ruler, Han Xuan in ChangSha. He later served Liu Bei and take orders because he afraid of Zhuge Liang. After Zhuge Liang died, he started to rebel, and was killed by Ma Dai. that was how the tradegy of a traitor might happen.

Killing eunuch rather than own ruler is not as great sin as killing own ruler.

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Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:22 pm

^Killing a ruler who is a detriment to the country to save the country is different from killing for self gain. You might be a traitor to the ruler but a saviour to the country.

Wei Yan killed for self gain and was an a-hole in the novel. Someone that kills Liu Shan to help Shu cannot be compared to Wei Yan.

If killing Huang Hao changes nothing but costs you your life then you have just thrown your life away for nothing. If you are going to lose your life then you should choose the route which is more likely to achieve your objectives.

There were good rulers in history who removed their fathers as ruler and installed themselves.
"You weaver of mats! You plaiter of straw shoes! You have been smart enough to get possession of a large region and elbow your way into the ranks of the nobles. I was just going to attack you, and now you dare to scheme against me! How I detest you!"
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