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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:01 am
by Sean
Liu Shan didn't, in my opinion, do much. He was completely dependent on Huang Hao, and when Jiang Wei was fighting the Wei Forces on his campaigns, Jiang Wei's voice never reached Liu Shan.

Although, that might've been a good thing as well, because if Liu Shan did indeed give more resources to Jiang Wei, well...Shu would've declined even more quickly.

Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:15 am
by Yorak
I dunno. The impression I get from Liu Chan isn't so much that he was mentally deficient or lacked the skill to rule the kingdom, it's that he lacked the ambition. He didn't really care. Plus, as was mentioned, he listened to bad advice. Maybe if he involved himself more in his kingdom, he would have done better...

...Or maybe not. I think the thing that ultimately broke Shu wasn't Liu Shan's incompetance, nor Jiang Wei's (although neither helped). It was Wei's power. Even if Liu Chan had talent equalling Zhuge Liang's, I still think Shu's fall was all but inevitable.

In fact, that may have been part of the reason for Liu Shan's lack of interest - he knew they didn't really have a chance, and basically just held Shu out of respect for his father and Kongming.

Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:22 am
by EmperorWei
All these replies,seems like you guys says Shu is just delaying the inevitable,getting conquered sooner or later.

Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:44 pm
by man4422
EmperorWei wrote:All these replies,seems like you guys says Shu is just delaying the inevitable,getting conquered sooner or later.

Not really EmperorWei.

I do not really agree what the rest have said. If Liu Bei/Zhuge Liang could have took more time to look after him, without thinking of conquering the enemies, then Liu Shan might get to learn from him, and slowly developed the rights to make his own right decision.

Just the same as when a child is naughty and dont like to study, like to go elsewhere to wander around, join bad company. This child is not partly to blame. His parents also take the responsibility too.


Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:26 pm
by Cao Moo
A wise man once said those dealing with the wise shall proper, those haveing dealings with the stupid will fair badly.

When we first meet Liu Cahn he is an eager and competent man.

He has one major characeter flaw the extreme need of others advice.

Due to poor choices in associates the Liu chan we leave at the end of the book is a far cry from the one we first met. Bad association had corrupted his more useful traits leaving him but a hollow shell of the man he once was undeserving of the title of emperor.

Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:47 am
by Wizardman
If Liu Chan had been a beter ruler, then Shu could've actually kept on going, and probbably would've outlasted Wu (maybe not jin).
WE know little about Liu Chen, Shan's son. From what is known , he would have been a great ruler or general.
Keep in mind that there was much that could've been donem, it just wasn't done. Liu Bei told Kongming that if Liu Chan was a poor ruler, then he could handle affairs. Kongmign never took over, and Liu Chan was able to cause tyranny without anyone really against him.

Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:44 pm
by Zhang Shu
personally i hate liu shan. but of course u can not blame it all on liu shan because of huang hao's stupid self. i think liu bei should have educated liu shan better. he is actually not as bad in the book as in the movie, but still... he should have fought with deng ai at chengdu. I mean didnt like deng ai only have 300 men after they crossed yinping?

Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 am
by man4422
Zhuge Liang/ Jiang Wei should advice Jiang Wan to take good care of Liu Shan when they are not around the court. Jiang Wan and Fei Yi should keep close to Liu Shan, then the emperor affairs with the eunches would not start.


Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:06 am
by Six_and_Up
Huang Hao only took power when Jiang Wan, Fei Yi and Dong Yun all had died.

Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:08 am
by Wo Long
Sao Meng wrote:I say Liu Chan would've been a good (not great) ruler.

The reason?

Liu Chan listened to Huang Hao too much and would leave decisions to him..

And if only Liu Bei didn't drop Liu Chan...haha :lol:

Hahaha! I agree. Good not great, plus he hurled him to the ground when Zhao Yun rescued him. Now that really shows love!