Sun Quan Surrenders, Liu Bei done for?

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Sun Quan Surrenders, Liu Bei done for?

Unread postby EmperorWei » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:44 am

Hi everyone,and although this is my first time here at this Forum,I hope
I can gain more knowledge from scholars like you about RotK. :)

Anyway,I was wondering if Sun Quan reached the conclusion of
surrendering before the Battle of Chibi,and lost to Tsao of Wei. Would Liu Bei be done for?
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Unread postby Fei Yi » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:38 am

It would seem very likely, because then Cao Cao would be able to gain all of the south lands and Liu Bei would not have Jing as a base. He might be able to seek refuge with Liu Zhang, but I think if Sun Quan Had surrendered, it would only be a matter of a few years before Cao Cao had united China.
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Unread postby EmperorWei » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:29 am

Fei Yi wrote:It would seem very likely, because then Cao Cao would be able to gain all of the south lands and Liu Bei would not have Jing as a base. He might be able to seek refuge with Liu Zhang, but I think if Sun Quan Had surrendered, it would only be a matter of a few years before Cao Cao had united China.


What makes you think Liu Zhang will accept Liu Bei... :?
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:19 am

EmperorWei wrote:
Fei Yi wrote:It would seem very likely, because then Cao Cao would be able to gain all of the south lands and Liu Bei would not have Jing as a base. He might be able to seek refuge with Liu Zhang, but I think if Sun Quan Had surrendered, it would only be a matter of a few years before Cao Cao had united China.


What makes you think Liu Zhang will accept Liu Bei... :?


If Cao Cao controlled Jing and Yang Liu Zhang would be looking to get all the allies he can find. he sure as heck would take in Liu Bei (not that it would matter)
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Unread postby Stedfel » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:39 am

Hmmm. Well, for one, I think Cao Cao would be in a very precarious position. If you remember, Sun Quan's force was literally divided over the subject. If he had surrendered, a lot of Wu generals might of stayed, but I'd assume that most would go to one of the other southern forces, maybe to Liu Zhang, as Jing would soon be under Cao occupation anyway.

Either way, this leaves Liu Bei two options. He could, A. Join Liu Zhang, and attempt to hold off Cao Cao, or B. Surrender to Cao Cao. Either way, I don't see Liu Bei truly going anywhere. If Wu gave up, I doubt Liu Bei would have ever even had the resources to found Shu.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:58 am

Stedfel wrote:Hmmm. Well, for one, I think Cao Cao would be in a very precarious position. If you remember, Sun Quan's force was literally divided over the subject. If he had surrendered, a lot of Wu generals might of stayed, but I'd assume that most would go to one of the other southern forces, maybe to Liu Zhang, as Jing would soon be under Cao occupation anyway.

Either way, this leaves Liu Bei two options. He could, A. Join Liu Zhang, and attempt to hold off Cao Cao, or B. Surrender to Cao Cao. Either way, I don't see Liu Bei truly going anywhere. If Wu gave up, I doubt Liu Bei would have ever even had the resources to found Shu.


Even if all the military minded people of Sun Quan's army plus Liu Bei and his people manage to all get to Liu Zhang and join him they would still have no chance at that point. Now with just about the entire empire in his hands Cao Cao could in theory put about half a million men (historicly) or upwars of 2 million men (novel wise) to surround Yi and with his greatest military generals leading these troops and with a whole lot less chance of disease Liu Zhang wouldn't last very long much less Liu Bei.
Oh and if Liu Bei surrendered to Cao Cao he would just be executed anyway so that really wasn't an option.
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Unread postby Stedfel » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:20 am

Even if all the military minded people of Sun Quan's army plus Liu Bei and his people manage to all get to Liu Zhang and join him they would still have no chance at that point. Now with just about the entire empire in his hands Cao Cao could in theory put about half a million men (historicly) or upwars of 2 million men (novel wise) to surround Yi and with his greatest military generals leading these troops and with a whole lot less chance of disease Liu Zhang wouldn't last very long much less Liu Bei.


I never believed that Liu Bei, the Wu remnants, and Liu Zhang could of held off Cao Cao. That's why I used the word 'attempt' instead of 'would'. I never held much hope for Liu Bei anyway.

Oh and if Liu Bei surrendered to Cao Cao he would just be executed anyway so that really wasn't an option


I'm not so sure if Cao Cao would have executed Liu Bei. As far as I can tell, Cao Cao only executed people whom he truly hated or feared, and I haven't seen much to prove that he really hated Liu Bei, and he really wasn't much of a threat pre-King of Han Zhong. I mean, he didn't execute Zhang Xiu when he surrendered, and he had many more reasons to execute Zhang Xiu.
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Unread postby EmperorWei » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:33 am

Stedfel wrote:
Even if all the military minded people of Sun Quan's army plus Liu Bei and his people manage to all get to Liu Zhang and join him they would still have no chance at that point. Now with just about the entire empire in his hands Cao Cao could in theory put about half a million men (historicly) or upwars of 2 million men (novel wise) to surround Yi and with his greatest military generals leading these troops and with a whole lot less chance of disease Liu Zhang wouldn't last very long much less Liu Bei.


I never believed that Liu Bei, the Wu remnants, and Liu Zhang could of held off Cao Cao. That's why I used the word 'attempt' instead of 'would'. I never held much hope for Liu Bei anyway.

Oh and if Liu Bei surrendered to Cao Cao he would just be executed anyway so that really wasn't an option


I'm not so sure if Cao Cao would have executed Liu Bei. As far as I can tell, Cao Cao only executed people whom he truly hated or feared, and I haven't seen much to prove that he really hated Liu Bei, and he really wasn't much of a threat pre-King of Han Zhong. I mean, he didn't execute Zhang Xiu when he surrendered, and he had many more reasons to execute Zhang Xiu.


Liu Bei betrayed Cao,Cao's advisor will no doubt say that Liu Bei will attempt to leave him sooner or later. Liu Bei will be killed,its obvious.
Plus,Cao resolved to kill all in the Girdle Edict Scheme.
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Unread postby Stedfel » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:58 am

Liu Bei betrayed Cao,Cao's advisor will no doubt say that Liu Bei will attempt to leave him sooner or later. Liu Bei will be killed,its obvious.
Plus,Cao resolved to kill all in the Girdle Edict Scheme.


Well, back on the Zhang Xiu subject, he technically betrayed him as well.

But yeah, the girdle edict slipped my mind entirely. Of course, I can't remember for the life of me if that was a historical incident or just pulled out of Luo Guanzhong's mind.
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Unread postby EmperorWei » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:06 am

Stedfel wrote:
Liu Bei betrayed Cao,Cao's advisor will no doubt say that Liu Bei will attempt to leave him sooner or later. Liu Bei will be killed,its obvious.
Plus,Cao resolved to kill all in the Girdle Edict Scheme.


Well, back on the Zhang Xiu subject, he technically betrayed him as well.

But yeah, the girdle edict slipped my mind entirely. Of course, I can't remember for the life of me if that was a historical incident or just pulled out of Luo Guanzhong's mind.


It is a historical incident,Cao shamed Empeor Xian,and therefore showing
Cao's true ambitions.Xian knew that Cao would be a menace to the state,and therefore ordered Dong Cheng and any other willing to protect the Han Dynasty to plot aganist Cao. As Liu Bei,Ma Teng and many others were in it,the fact is obvious the Girdle Edict Scheme was real....we all know it failed,of course :?
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