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Zhou Yu betrayed

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:39 am
by Battousai
I just can't understand Zhuge Liang betrayal to Zhou Yu, Zhou yu just asked him an alliance since he wanted to proctect his and Sun Ce's wife, the two Qiaos and after they decided to attack a Wei providence, Zhuge Liang orders to take them before Zhou Yu's forces does and I find that unfair, althougth the strongest get everything :?

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:34 pm
by Lafeel
Considering the fact that the province in question (Jing) didn't belong to Wu, but rather to Liu Biao's son (forgot the name) , I don't think Wu had any right to claim it...

yo

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:30 pm
by Da_Chicago_Jigalo
If u remember, Zhuge Liang went to Sun Quan's court in the first place to get him to help Liu Bei. Liu Bei had run out of allies and they were a large hope. You could almost say Liu Bei (through the skills of Zhuge Liang) used Sun Quan. Zhou Yu was the greatest commander in Wu at the time so he commanded the armies, and the nation, and Zhuge Liang new that Zhou Yu had the capability (or at least took a risk) to repel Cao's attack in the south.
Zhuge Liang went to Sun Quan to stir up Sun Quan to actions against Cao Cao, once Cao Cao was repelled Liu Bei no longer needed Sun Quan. So while Zhou Yu went off to attack a strategic city (Xiang Yang i think) Zhuge Liang saw the opportunity to gain a stronghold for Liu Bei by taking the land that Zhou Yu was gonna take before he could take it. Zhou Yu was fully aware that Zhuge Liang would do this but he knew the importance of Xiang Yang (Which sadly, was lost not too long later). Zhuge Liang betrayed Zhou Yu because he never really wanted a standing alliance, and he saw Jing as a foothold to the Yi provence
and took the advantage while Zhou Yu was dealing with something else.

On Liu Qi/Zong and inheiretance

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:01 pm
by Frank
Lafeel wrote:Considering the fact that the province in question (Jing) didn't belong to Wu, but rather to Liu Biao's son (forgot the name) , I don't think Wu had any right to claim it...


Yes, Liu Zong is his name. By all rights, Liu Bei, as uncle of Liu Zong, had more claims to Jing than Sun Quan did. And, if anything, Zhou Yu was the one betraying Zhuge Liang. He had always resented him, and attempted to kill him, during the time Zhuge Liang "borrowed" 10,000 arrows. You can't possibly say that Zhou Yu asked for Zhuge Liang's assistance for a good cause. He purely had the intent on Zhuge Liang's capture by Cao Cao's forces, or even his death.

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:22 pm
by Lafeel
True. But you must admit that the "borrowing of the arrows" event is one of the high notes in the entire novel. :D
"We thank you, prime minister, for the arrows!"...Priceless :lol:

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:04 pm
by Zhilong
Sun Quan sent his envoy over to invite ZL over. With or without Liu Bei Wu was gonna have to fight or surrender to Cao Cao.

Zhou Yu repeatedly tried to kill ZL so he can hardly cry foul when ZL in return does not treat him well.

Re: On Liu Qi/Zong and inheiretance

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:59 pm
by Rommel
Prime Minister Cao wrote:Yes, Liu Zong is his name. By all rights, Liu Bei, as uncle of Liu Zong, had more claims to Jing than Sun Quan did. And, if anything, Zhou Yu was the one betraying Zhuge Liang. He had always resented him, and attempted to kill him, during the time Zhuge Liang "borrowed" 10,000 arrows. You can't possibly say that Zhou Yu asked for Zhuge Liang's assistance for a good cause. He purely had the intent on Zhuge Liang's capture by Cao Cao's forces, or even his death.


You talk about the novel only right? In the book Zhou Yu was created to make ZGL to shine. In order to convince the readers that ZGL was a Saint, Zhou Yu was illustrated as selfish and jealous, which in fact the opposite. To emphasize the role of Liu Bei's savior the author "stole" the stories such as "arrow borrowing" from Sun Quan, "empty city trick" from unknown Wei general, BoWangPo battle from Liu Bei, and gave them to ZGL. Since the appearance of Zhuge Liang all charactors in the book function to glorify Zhuge Liang only including Zhou Yu.

Re: On Liu Qi/Zong and inheiretance

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:43 pm
by Da_Chicago_Jigalo
Prime Minister Cao wrote:
Lafeel wrote:Considering the fact that the province in question (Jing) didn't belong to Wu, but rather to Liu Biao's son (forgot the name) , I don't think Wu had any right to claim it...


Yes, Liu Zong is his name. By all rights, Liu Bei, as uncle of Liu Zong, had more claims to Jing than Sun Quan did. And, if anything, Zhou Yu was the one betraying Zhuge Liang. He had always resented him, and attempted to kill him, during the time Zhuge Liang "borrowed" 10,000 arrows. You can't possibly say that Zhou Yu asked for Zhuge Liang's assistance for a good cause. He purely had the intent on Zhuge Liang's capture by Cao Cao's forces, or even his death.

Actually as far as it goes in property gains, Sun Jian earned part of Jing because of the Yellow Turban rebellion. It was taken from him by Liu Biao, and forever the Sun family fought to take Jing back. The truth is Sun Quan had pretty much the same rights Liu Bei had to it. But world wise, it was rightfully whoever could take it. It was rightfully Liu Biao's since he had the power to take it from Sun Jian. After Liu Yong lost it it was out for the taking between Sun Quan, Liu Bei, and Cao Cao. Property wise, the only way Liu Bei could have a rightful claim to Jing is because he was sheltering Liu Young. (Or Liu Young was sheltering him) Either way you know how it goes....

As far as the novel goes, Zhou Yu is portrayed almost the exact opposite as what he was in real life. In the novel he is portrayed as a selfish, hateful, second level strategist who was always in the shadow of Zhuge Liang. In real life he was a caring, good moraled young man who was a very powerful navy strategist and clearly knew what he was doing. He was not as good as Zhuge Liang was, but Zhuge Liang knew that Zhou Yu was a worthy general.

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:06 pm
by Lafeel
That is true. But my knowlegde of actual Chinese history is severly limited. As I live half way around the world from China (Iceland) my resources for getting more factual info on this particular period is somewhat limited..So I base my opinion largely on the novel.
(Note: Has never claimed otherwise)

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:18 pm
by Huang Bob
I posed this question to my friend a little bit ago, it was more like this though:

Zhou Yu and Wu did all the work to capture Jiang Ling, yet Zhuge Liang steals it from them. Rightfully it should belong to Sun Quan. But Liu Bei's forces captured the 4 citied of lower Jing. They did all the work for those, but Sun Quan also wants those cities as well as Jiang Ling.

If Zhou Yu did all the work to capture Jiang Ling, he should occupy it, same goes for Liu Bei and the lower 4, right?