Cao Cao and his people before Guan Du (historical)

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Cao Cao and his people before Guan Du (historical)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:51 pm

I am wondering about something. I see in several SGZ sources things about how Cao Cao even though he is militarily weaker that it is a given that he will defeat Yuan Shao. I was wondering about this. What did Cao Cao and his officers do by this point to make people believe that they couldn't lose.
Cao Cao himself has many victories against rebel troops, Li Jue/Guo Si, Yuan Shu, Liu Bei and Lu Bu.
Cao Cao's most famous generals that are remembered are Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Yu Jin, Yue Jin, and Zhang He. Yue Jin gained his fame with his involvment in the battles against Yuan Shao, Zhang He served Yuan Shao, Zhang Liao has been with Cao Cao for about a year by this time, Xu Huang i don't recal doing anything important by this time. Yu Jin gained some fame fighting some rebels and in the fight against Lu Bu i believe.
Xiahou Dun had lost his eye and is better suited with a post at the capital then on the field. Xiahou Yuan couldn't have done too much more then Yu Jin.
Cao Ren is probably the most famous general at this time with victories against rebels, Lu Bu and Liu Bei. Cao Hong i don't recal doing anything amazing by this time.

I am apparently missing something, while these victories are well and good none of them show me that they could defeat a vastly superior army which has many victories under their belts.

I must be missing something, i welcome any information about Cao Cao's generals and personal victories which shows that by the time of Guan Du that he is totally superior to Yuan Shao, please no future actions only things done before Guan Du.
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Unread postby Battousai » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:21 pm

Did Xiahou Dun trully eated his eyes after he recieved the arrow?
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Unread postby MasaKenji » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:28 pm

they got guan yu... slayed two of yuan shao greatest generals. morale goes up.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:50 pm

Both of those things happened in the novel, historical things only please.
Also no events that took place either at Guan Du or after it.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:09 pm

THe way the actual SGZ text puts Cao Cao at a disadvantage is seen to be an exagerattion by Wei Historians (and later adapted by Chen Shuo) to make his deeds look better than they were. For example, his bio says that he only had 10,000 troops. How could a mere 10,000 troops defeat an army of around 250,000 thousand? The formations he used and strategies deployed would just not be feasible or even possible with that size army unless Yuan Shao had an IQ equal to that of a toddler.

As Pei Song Zhi puts it, Cao Cao's troop number must have been atlesat 80,000 and must have been veyr near to Yuan Shao's numbers. Yuan Shao was furthermore suffering from huge supply problems and there was starving on his side evne prior to Cao Cao buring his supplies.

All this is topped upon the actual fact that cao Cao was superior to Yuan Shao in commanding, so it's not a surprise Cao Cao won at Guan Du.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:02 pm

Lu Kang wrote:THe way the actual SGZ text puts Cao Cao at a disadvantage is seen to be an exagerattion by Wei Historians (and later adapted by Chen Shuo) to make his deeds look better than they were. For example, his bio says that he only had 10,000 troops. How could a mere 10,000 troops defeat an army of around 250,000 thousand? The formations he used and strategies deployed would just not be feasible or even possible with that size army unless Yuan Shao had an IQ equal to that of a toddler.

As Pei Song Zhi puts it, Cao Cao's troop number must have been atlesat 80,000 and must have been veyr near to Yuan Shao's numbers. Yuan Shao was furthermore suffering from huge supply problems and there was starving on his side evne prior to Cao Cao buring his supplies.

All this is topped upon the actual fact that cao Cao was superior to Yuan Shao in commanding, so it's not a surprise Cao Cao won at Guan Du.


Well i figured that Cao Cao had more then 10,000 men. I always thought that he had around 100,000 while Yuan Shao having around 120,000-150,000

are you are saying that all the stuff about how Cao Cao wanting to retreat because of lack of food is made up to make him look better?
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Unread postby Mistelten » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:10 pm

Surely having custody of the emperor would secure the loyalty of the masses. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Cao Cao's forces were equal to those of the Yuans. I think Guan Du WAS one sided because of the two leaders; The great general of the day VS a man who didn't really think for himself.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:25 pm

The supply issues may or may not be made up, I've never really evaulated them and have taken them mostly to be true. However, the size of his force is the real thing that gave Cao Cao's army the appeareance of being much waeker than Yuan Shao. Boths sides were suffereing from supply problems and it was Yuan Shao that was attacking.
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Unread postby Jeremy » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:42 pm

So if Guan Yu had not been there were was he at the time of Guan Du?
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Unread postby Mistelten » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:53 pm

Guan Yu was there, he wasn't personal friends with Cao Cao like the SGYY states though.
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