Was Xun Yu wrong about Yuan Shao's advisors? (Novel)

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Was Xun Yu wrong about Yuan Shao's advisors? (Novel)

Unread postby Cloud Strife » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:31 am

Xun Yu laughed, saying, "His army is a rabble. One general, Tian Feng, is bold but treacherous; another, Xu You, is greedy and ignorant; Shen Pei is devoted but stupid; Peng Ji is steady but useless. And these four of such different temperaments, mutually incompatible, will make for confusion rather than efficiency. The brave Yan Liang and Wen Chou are worthless and can be disposed of in the first battle; and the others such as Gao Lan, Zhang He, Han Meng, and Chunyu Qiong are poor, rough stuff. What is the use even of their hundred thousands?"

From Chapter 22.

I was wondering if Xun Yu was wrong because didn't Yuan Shao get good advice from his advisors but he didn't listen to them? Also, do you agree with Xun Yu's description?
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:12 am

If Pang Ji is useless, then why was it his plot that got Jizhou for Yuan Shao. That's my only complaint. But I can say the same thing about Cao Cao:

"His army is a rabble. One general, Guan Yu, is bold but treacherous; another, Yu Jin, is greedy and ignorant; Xiahou Yuan is devoted but stupid; Cao Hong is steady but useless. And these four of such different temperaments, mutually incompatible, will make for confusion rather than efficiency. The brave Song Xian and Wei Xu are worthless and can be disposed of in the first battle; and the others such as Yue Jin, Man Chong, Cheng Yu, and Xiahou Dun are poor, rough stuff. What is the use even of their hundred thousands?"

Most of that is remotely true.
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Unread postby SixWingGryffin » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:41 am

I'd also like to point out that Yan Liang was apparently quite a threat at Bai Ma, and the "rough, worthless" Zhang He went on to be one of Wei's great generals. I think the confilict's solution actually rested on the rulers. Had Yuan Shao commanded Cao Cao's army and vice-versa, Cao Cao would still probably beat him, since he knew who to listen to and who to ignore.
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Unread postby Lord Sun Ce » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:59 am

a very unknown true fact: Xu You's second cousin was married to the sister of Zhuge Liang's wife.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:51 am

Xun Yu's comments aren't wrong, but they are certainly exaggerated to prove a point to Cao Cao. By comparison to Cao Cao's advisors the only men who were good advisors to Yuan Shao were Tian Feng and Ju Shou.
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Unread postby Tyler » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:50 pm

I think Yuan Shao relied too heavilly on his advisiors.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:13 pm

Liu Ce wrote:I think Yuan Shao relied too heavilly on his advisiors.


A lot of the time he didn't even listen to them at all. Besides, Cao Cao almost always turned to his advisers when he needed to make a decision. There's nothing wrong with being dependant on your advisers, that's what they're there for. :wink:
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Unread postby James » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:39 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:[…] Most of that is remotely true.

Either way I look at it, novel or history, that assessment is actually quite a way off and poor; not remotely true. Keep in mind that he is offering an evaluation—negative at that—of the force that destroyed his ruler with a much smaller military in the end. A good advisor would not have played down such a threat’s power.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:40 pm

Tell me then, James, who was he wrong about. It is true that he overaxagerated but there is slight evidence for each case proving Xun Yu to be correct.
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Unread postby SixWingGryffin » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:44 pm

Could I have some clarification as to how Tian Feng is "bold, but treacherous?" If I remember, it is he who advises against Yuan's expedition, and I don't recall all that much treachery on his part, although I could be mistaken. Most of what Xun Yu said about Yuan's advisors was, in my opinion, at least partly true, with this exception.
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