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More Loyal, Xiahou Ba or Jiang Wei

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:03 am
by Jeremy
Who do you think was more loyal?

Xiahou Ba, though went to Shu, was only doing it because he foresaw the takeover by the Simas.

While Jiang Wei had many campaigns to destroy Wei and even after that he ended up being captured yet he still strived to get away and conquer Wei.

I vote Xiahou Ba considering it shall be my new name soon.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:54 pm
by Exar Kun
Jiang Wei.He took his duty above and beyond the call.
After Liu Shan surrendered he could have went to a cushy posting in Wei.But instead he engineers the death of Deng Ai and manipulates Zhong Hui,all in trying to reform Shu.He fails but the end result is him taking Zhong Hui with him as well.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:05 pm
by SixWingGryffin
Xiahou Ba was loyal, but I think it would be hard to top Jiang Wei. He may not have had much success, but all of Jiang's actions were done for what he considered to be the good of Shu, even after its collapse.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:10 pm
by PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
If Xiahou Ba was loyal to Wei, he would have done what Chen Tai and others did.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:35 pm
by Jeremy
What did Chen Tai do. Because Xiahou Ba only joined Shu so that he could get rid of Jin so that Wei won't suffer a downfall. Wouldn't you think it's pretty loyal to join one of your largest enemies of whom killed your own father just to save your own kingdom? Jiang Wei just did what a lot of people would do if that happened to him. Guan Yu would have, Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun, Huang Zhong, Yan Yan, Ma Chao, and Zhuge Liang. All of those people wouldn't have submitted to Wei but gotten executed or try to work from within. Jian Wei was just doing what any strong Shu person would do.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:08 pm
by Stedfel
In the 5th year of Gan Lu (AD 260), the Emperor of Wei, Cao Mao, led a group of palace guards and attendants in a bid to attack Sima Zhao as he could not tolerate the tyranny of Sima’s family. Sima Zhao immediately ordered his trusted general Jia Chong to kill the Wei Emperor together with his followers. On knowing that, Chen Tai rushed to the scene and cried on seeing the corpse of the Wei Emperor. Soon Sima Zhao arrived and asked Chen Tai for advice regarding the settlement for this issue. Chen Tai replied that the issue could only be resolved by executing Jia Chong. However, Sima Zhao was unwilling to do that and asked for an alternative. Chen Tai was so enraged that he collapsed suddenly and died.


Chen Tai was willing to die for Wei, while it appears that Xiahou Ba was not.

Look at it this way, Jiang Wei died trying to bring Shu back, while Xiahou Ba died tryng to help Shu conquer Wei. So I guess my answer is obvious, I believe that Jiang Wei was quite loyal to Shu.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:09 pm
by Emperor Zhuge Liang
[quote="MaChaoMaster"]What did Chen Tai do. Because Xiahou Ba only joined Shu so that he could get rid of Jin so that Wei won't suffer a downfall. Wouldn't you think it's pretty loyal to join one of your largest enemies of whom killed your own father just to save your own kingdom? quote]

But what would Jiang Wei say if he had taken over Wei and defeated the Sima's. Just give it back to Xiahou Ba and the Cao's?

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:39 pm
by Man Chong
Eh, well, Jiang Wei is obviously the more loyal. I mean, although he wasn't extremely talented compared to the likes of Chen Tai, Deng Ai, etc. he tried nevertheless. And when all seemed to have been lost, he still hatched a plan, and died trying to execute it.

Xiahou Ba....He left Wei. He could always be like his comrade Chen Tai: die trying to restore Wei or something. But when Xiahou Ba left Wei, it wasn't technically Jin yet, so in a way, he did betray Wei...

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:11 pm
by PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
How do you know Guan Yu and others would do the same thing?

It's treason. Pure treason, no matter the reason. He left Wei because he feared for his life, he thought Sima Yi would kill him. He didn't care about Wei. All he cared about was his own well being because that's the only thing he had in mind during his surrender.

Now, if he did something like Wuqui Jian or Zhuge Dan, then I would understand. But he didn't. He not only betrayed Wei but betrayed his father who, if he were still alive, would probably disown him if not kill him.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:01 pm
by Exar Kun
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:It's treason. Pure treason, no matter the reason. He left Wei because he feared for his life, he thought Sima Yi would kill him. He didn't care about Wei. All he cared about was his own well being because that's the only thing he had in mind during his surrender.

Now, if he did something like Wuqui Jian or Zhuge Dan, then I would understand. But he didn't. He not only betrayed Wei but betrayed his father who, if he were still alive, would probably disown him if not kill him.


No doubt.
Xiahou Ba abandoned the kingdom his father put his life into in favour of a kingdom that had Wei as public enemy number one.

Xiahou Ba thus supported the destruction of the kingdom his father and uncles built.
Xiahou Ba is a flat traitor who ran to save his own skin.