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Cao Cao...

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:56 pm
by Mitsunari Ishida
Although Cao Cao was said to be a traitor, he infact helped China the most as if it wasnt for Cao Cao, the Yellow Scarves would have destroyed the lands and Dong Zhou would be still ruling with Lu Bu, and Yuan Shu, Yuan Shao and Liu Biao's family would still be ruling. If it was not for Cao Cao who knows how many would have declared themselves emerpor or prince of a region, and therfore the lands would be disturbed, he said it him self in a poem in almost the same words. China would have been still fighting by the time the Jin came in to power, maybe. Thats what I think anyway.

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 4:29 pm
by Zuyen Yu
Cao Cao was said to be a traitor because he was serving the Han, eating Han's bounty...then when got power in his hands he didn't support his prince but instead did the opposite, abuse and killed whoever go against his plans. I wished that 'long ear' Liu Bei (I still like him) didn't stop Zhang Fei and Guan Yu from killing Dong Zhou & Cao Cao, respectively, when they had their chances. I know if they had killed these guys there would be someone else replaced them howerer you finished when you could then others will follow suiit. :P

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 5:00 pm
by Starscream
Well perhaps we should really give Cao Cao greater credit for uniting China. He's a warlord and somewhat disloyal to Han as seen in his actions, and he's a cunning type, but nevertheless, I feel that LGZ and others had overdone things to worsen the image of Cao Cao, making him more cunning and unscrupulous than what he actually was. For example, the massacre of Xuzhou was unjustly amplified to show his evilness whereas during the warring era, it was almost seen in all the states in terms of killing civilians, not just systematic killing but through pillages and attempts to pacify rural regions etc. The killing of Ji Ping (the doctor) in SGYY perhaps left a really deep mark in Cao Cao's reputation also by showing his absolute cruelty. At least, this is how I feel...

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 5:24 pm
by Mitsunari Ishida
I think he was evil when he killed Liu Zong etc, as I think there was no need to have them killed, by Yu Jin. :twisted:

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 5:27 pm
by lordostrategy
SGYY is biased, they cut out Cao Cao's good side, and took out negative things of Shu. They turned Shu generals into gods, but when they lose, it looks pathetic. Cao Cao is truly loyal, he never took the Han throne unlike his son. He actually tried to stop from being a king, but due to relentless protests he took the position.

The book is a novel, and they twist the story for novel purposes.... Guan Yu, already dead, couldn't have saved his son from the blade of Yueji, leader of the Qiang Military. Iron Chariots were not magically stopped by a spirit..... tis all a lie.

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:03 pm
by Lance
I don't care to debate on this subject, as any debate on it sinks into an endless mire about the Girdle Decreement and the Fu Wan's assasination attempt......because of the following:
1)Girdle Decreement
-Dong Cheng's motives may not be honorable
-Dong Cheng may have forged the Decreement itself
-Cao Cao murders as many involved as possible without a word to Emperor Xian
2)Fu Wan's Assasination Attempt
-Queen Fu ordered Fu Wan to kill Cao Cao
-The Fu family has political power, but no miliatary
-Cao Cao again has the Fu family eradicated without Imperial approval
These points alone are quite confusing and inconclusive......and there aren't any that shed much light on the reality of these attempts on Cao's life....

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:36 pm
by Zhou Gongjin
I am quite sure that the Yellow Scarves would be dealt with without Cao Cao. As would Dong Zhuo.
I don't think Cao Cao did anything wortwhile other than establish a good administration in the north.
Cao Cao was an immoral, self-preserving man who did not think twice when his first born son was killed because he had to sleep with the widdow of Zhang Ji. But when his barbarian general Dian Wei is killed he cries.
Cao Cao was exceedingly cruel during his entire carreer and in the end it did not matter because he was unable to establish any order in his family and relied too much on the political weights of the Xiahou's.
Cao Cao was a very good Warlord, but not an examplary leader of any kind. Furthermore, Cao Cao did not acheive anything in the end, whereas Zhu Yuanzhang, someone equally cruel *pokes at Han Xin* actually reunited the country.
Lance, it's quite rediculous to doubt Dong Cheng's motives or the authenticity of the decree, because then we might as well doubt wether or not any of them llived and its all a big joke by Luo Guanzhong and Chen Shou.

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 8:18 pm
by Mitsunari Ishida
Maybe not Yellow Scarves as I seem to remember the Yellow Scarves being largely dealt with by Lu Zhi, Zhu Jun and Haungfu Song. If Cao Cao was not around many would have declared themselves emperor and I think Cao Cao is responsible for gathering commanders to fight Dong Zhou, and I think that even if Cao Cao did some evil things, he did it to keep the lands less and less disturbed, and he was the most capible leader out of Sun Quan and Liu Bei. I think that if Sun Jian had lived Sun Jian would be looked at as being more capible and genorous then Cao Cao, and Wu would have lived longer.

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 8:22 pm
by Zhou Gongjin
If I remember correctly it was Lu Bu and Wang Yun who got rid of Dong Zhuo and not the coalittion on lords. Cao Cao failed in his assassination of Dong Zhuo as well.

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 8:24 pm
by Mitsunari Ishida
And Dio Chan as she did risk her life to go behind Dong Zhou and Lu Bu and at least Cao Cao tried to assasinate Dong Zhou.