Cao Cao...

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Unread postby Zuyen Yu » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:28 pm

Angelica wrote:I have been following your debate on Cao Cao and thought I should just add this little piece of philisophy into it:
"Though death will cancel it, Life in this world is a glorious thing and must be cherished."

About Cao Cao, I take Zhang Liao17 side (sorrie Zhou Gongjin) for he is quite right about Cao Cao's justifications.


I wish you guy were all under Cao Cao judgemnet "Think he'd spare you?" :x
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:29 pm

Cai Yan wrote:
Cao Cao was defeated by Yuan Shao and Lu Bu a lot of times? Perhaps he did suffer minor defeats from both Yuan and Lu, but these are nothing compared to the defeats of Sun Quan at Hefei or Liu Bei at Xuzhou. Cao Cao was a capable military strategist who could lead armies personally. The battle of Guan Du's success is not solely attributed to Xun Yu and Xu You but also to Cao Cao mainly, because it was Cao Cao who lead a much smaller force to defeat Yuan Shao and won the battle very decisively.


Sure he was able to lead, but he also lead many men into their deaths because of his arrogance.
Take the battle at Wan for example. Cao Cao sacrificed both his cousin and first born son, and his great general Dian Wei for what? Because he could not control himself and needed to have sex with the window of Zheng Ji. Cao Cao could have just as well picked another concubine, but instead he went after a dead man's wife, causing the deaths of many others.

Cai Yan wrote:Cao Cao's defeat at Chibi if taken from the historical point of view, was mainly due to diseases. His naval forces were actually trained somewhat before they head south, and this shows that he did not underestimate Wu.


Nobody was talking about history, that is a completely different discussion.

Cai Yan wrote: Killing the innocent is of course unethical from the present day's point of view. But during the olden days, it is a strategically correct and effective method to get rid of adversaries completely in order to secure your stand in the political world. If killing the children is immoral, then is the killing of soldiers and men, acts done by almost all the RTK characters mentioned moral? In the olden context, I would consider deliberate killing for the joy of it, or to see people suffer, would then be truly immoral, eg Dong Zhuo. Otherwise if we count the number of killers in RTK, I'm afraid all of them would be condemned to the 18th level of hell.... :twisted:


I am very sure that Cao Cao enjoyed torturing people like Yi Ping and Chun Yu Qiong, just as much as he enjoyed ordering the genocide at Xu Zhou.
Nowhere in SGYY does it say that Cao Cao even fainly regrets any of those actions.

Cai Yan wrote:This is unfortunate one the most famous distortions by LGZ. Cao Cao was never recorded to make such a statement. His actions however, did show his ambitions and his swift but cold actions taken against those that were his enemies.


Even if that statement is fictional, it is entirely justified by how he acted in the story.

So is anyone going to tell me why Cao Cao was great for killing Hua Tuo?
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Unread postby Starscream » Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:17 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Sure he was able to lead, but he also lead many men into their deaths because of his arrogance.
Take the battle at Wan for example. Cao Cao sacrificed both his cousin and first born son, and his great general Dian Wei for what? Because he could not control himself and needed to have sex with the window of Zheng Ji. Cao Cao could have just as well picked another concubine, but instead he went after a dead man's wife, causing the deaths of many others.

Still, his unity of northern China brought about peace and made living possible for the peasantry. In his folly he may have sacrificed the lives of a few, but in his efforts, be it of his ambitions or otherwise, he had preserved the lives of many.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Nobody was talking about history, that is a completely different discussion.

Okay, if you see the historical side of the story as unwelcoming.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I am very sure that Cao Cao enjoyed torturing people like Yi Ping and Chun Yu Qiong, just as much as he enjoyed ordering the genocide at Xu Zhou.
Nowhere in SGYY does it say that Cao Cao even fainly regrets any of those actions.

Let's say if I interpret the event as Cao Cao's attempt to interrogate Ji Ping in order to find out who were the rest of the collaborators attempting to oust his power. I take it as a political move. Was Chunyu Qiong tortured by Cao Cao?? I thought he was punished by Yuan Shao to drink to death for losing Wu Chao or something, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:So is anyone going to tell me why Cao Cao was great for killing Hua Tuo?

Cao Cao was never revered for killing Hua Tuo. Nobody said that.
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Unread postby Lance » Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:02 pm

It was the supply depots at Niao Chao that Chun Yu Qiong was supposed to defend, and their burning cause Yuan Shao's defeat at Guan-Du, as well as several other factors, as the rivalries amoung Yuan's advisors...
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:36 pm

Cai Yan wrote:Still, his unity of northern China brought about peace and made living possible for the peasantry. In his folly he may have sacrificed the lives of a few, but in his efforts, be it of his ambitions or otherwise, he had preserved the lives of many.


But did it last? No, because he did not secure Wei's future beyond himself. Because all he had in mind was the goals of himself and not china.

Cai Yan wrote:Okay, if you see the historical side of the story as unwelcoming.


It's a whole seperate discussion that most people could not follow.

Cai Yan wrote:Let's say if I interpret the event as Cao Cao's attempt to interrogate Ji Ping in order to find out who were the rest of the collaborators attempting to oust his power. I take it as a political move. Was Chunyu Qiong tortured by Cao Cao?? I thought he was punished by Yuan Shao to drink to death for losing Wu Chao or something, correct me if I'm wrong here.


I remember from the RTK tv series that Chun Yu Qiong was beaten and somehow mutilated, I'll have to look it up.

Cai Yan wrote:Cao Cao was never revered for killing Hua Tuo. Nobody said that.


Yes but its still accepted because nobody here can reply to it, because that would be admitting the fact that Cao Cao killed good and innocent men.
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Unread postby Angelica » Thu Aug 29, 2002 8:23 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I remember from the RTK tv series that Chun Yu Qiong was beaten and somehow mutilated, I'll have to look it up.


Cao Cao orderred Chun Yu Qiong to be deprived of ears, nose and hands and thus he was sent horribly mutated to his master, Yuan Shao.
Yuan Shao, in turn, ordered that Chun Yu Qiong be executed forthwith.

Not one of Cao Cao's "good impression" times there.
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Unread postby Lance » Fri Aug 30, 2002 12:16 am

That's made worse by the fact Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, and Chun Yu Qiong were lietenants together under He Jin and Cao Cao could've even been Yu Qiong's friend...
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Unread postby Starscream » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:45 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Cai Yan wrote:Still, his unity of northern China brought about peace and made living possible for the peasantry. In his folly he may have sacrificed the lives of a few, but in his efforts, be it of his ambitions or otherwise, he had preserved the lives of many.


But did it last? No, because he did not secure Wei's future beyond himself. Because all he had in mind was the goals of himself and not china.


Wei's future is not solely Cao Cao's responsibility alone, his descendants had a part to play with the maintenance and the eventual demise of Wei. Cao Cao conquered and governed Wei for his entire life time, and there were little or no uprisings during his rule. If he had planned only to conquer northern China for himself, why did Wei not break up immediately after his death, just like how Mongolia broke up after the death of Genghis Khan? Wei at least was the second last kingdom to be eradicated, showing its strong foundations set in by its founders.

With the peace in the northern regions, traders were then able to continue their livelihood and poets could develop literary works. If a country is not at peace, such economic and cultural development will not be able to ensue.
Last edited by Starscream on Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Lance » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:06 pm

I'll say this.....Cao Cao was ruthless. But what exactly is ruthless? I think the Animorph series defines it better than any dictionary. Marco of the Animorphs defines it as "seeing a straight line from point A to point B and getting from point A to point B no matter what." For Cao Cao, point A was being a lowly lieutenant under He Jin......point B was ruling China. If it meant losing a son and a few friends, Cao could care less, so long as point B was reached.......Cao Cao did many things to reach point B, many cruel and many kind. He treats officers well and tends to treat people under his jurisdictions well.....he was just ruthless.
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Unread postby Dennis » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:23 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:Cao Cao is the greatest man to ever live. He was extremely successful as a troop leader and was among the best politicians of the time. He was a wonderful strategist and continued to demolish all opposing enemies until old age slowed him down. He was cunning and had a quick wit, nobody in the era was his equal. Cao Cao's cruelty only makes me like him more. I would have done everything he did, if I was in his shoes. He killed people like Dong Cheng only because they wanted to kill him. I don't see how anyone could like a pansy like Liu Bei, who cried whenever something went against him. Cao Cao was the greatest person of the era and he showed it time after time. Forget those passive losers like Liu Bei, Cao Cao was a real man.


As much as I think "...the greatest man to ever live," was a bit of an overstatement, I believe Cao Cao did what was right for China. He was no different than someone like Churchill, or Truman a hard ass that people argued had to kill a large handful of innocents, to preserve and entire land full of innocents. I think Cao Cao is just one of those guys who doesn't mess around and let something as useless as morality to stand in his way. I would be a more efficient person if I thought killing and torture tactics were ok, but oh well, I am no Cao Cao.
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