Cao Cao...

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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:01 pm

Whatever, I am tired of discussing these things.
Dong Cheng's children were not a threat to Cao Cao, because by the time they are old enough to do anything Cao Cao would be so far away in the Imperial Chambers as Prime Minister that not even a fly could touch him.
I was not the one who compared Cao Cao to Hitler, you said yourself that everything in war is justifies, simply because you said that Cao Cao's atrocities are justified. That is called a double standard, because no matter what era you live in, you cannot justify the loss of so many lives, innocent or not.
If you see that your cousins are being treated like crap and feel bad about it, then how would you feel if they were killed because of something their father did?
Would you say its justified because their father deserved it?
Fact of the matter is that if we continue to condone the atricities commited by others under the excuse of justification then we will never evolve and will always keep on killing each other like we have and still are.
Anyways, don't reply to me in this thread anymore, I have nothing more to say and would rather discuss this personally.
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Unread postby Mitsunari Ishida » Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:13 pm

However evil it was it was around 1,800 years ago, you have to remember peole had a completly different understanding of life back then. Hitler was evil because he did horrible and pointless things to inocent people only around 57 years ago.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:18 pm

Mitsunari Ishida wrote:However evil it was it was around 1,800 years ago, you have to remember peole had a completly different understanding of life back then. Hitler was evil because he did horrible and pointless things to inocent people only around 57 years ago.


Maybe so, but try to understand that life is the most sacred thing we have, and that taking it away from others, now or 1800 years ago, is nothing to be proud of. And like I said before, there were many who disagreed with the killings and the atrocities.
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Unread postby Angelica » Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:37 pm

I have been following your debate on Cao Cao and thought I should just add this little piece of philisophy into it:
"Though death will cancel it, Life in this world is a glorious thing and must be cherished."

About Cao Cao, I take Zhang Liao17 side (sorrie Zhou Gongjin) for he is quite right about Cao Cao's justifications.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:53 pm

..........
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
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Unread postby James » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:37 am

Cool it, both of you. Zhou Gongjin, I know you hate Cao Cao, but you are being irrational in your arguments. This does not mix well with ZL17's very positive view of the man.

As for my thoughts...

I would never call him the greatest man to ever life, he was a murderer just like Liu Bei and Sun Quan, and he served his own ends in his actions (again just like Liu Bei and Sun Quan). On the other hand, however, he _was_ a very intelligent leader and a true visionary. He had the ambition and the talent to unify China, the fact that he failed is invalid because _he was dead_. If Cao Cao had lived beyond a normal lifespan he would have united China and dealt with the Sima clan.

Also, you cannot compare the slaughter of the family of someone that is executed to Hitler's actions against the Jews. Now I am going to say some things that might offend our sensitive moral code these days, but I will be blunt. When you are a political leader in a time like this and you kill an influential person others that are close to him will seek revenge. If you kill him and his immediate family you are just in many more times the trouble. Killing the whole household, in most instances, prevented any sort of vengeance. Was it ethical? Of course not. Was it necessary? Unfortunately the answer is probably yes.

If we are going to talk about the virtues of the military leaders of this era we need to speak in equal terms. I don't doubt for a second that the other political leaders of the time would have taken similar actions to maintain their own power.

Again, discuss it if you can stay calm and rational about it. If you can't, then don't discuss it at all.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Thu Aug 29, 2002 9:03 am

Zhuge Kongming wrote:Cool it, both of you. Zhou Gongjin, I know you hate Cao Cao, but you are being irrational in your arguments. This does not mix well with ZL17's very positive view of the man.


I don't hate Cao Cao, I hate his methods and their justifications.

Zhuge Kongming wrote:I would never call him the greatest man to ever life, he was a murderer just like Liu Bei and Sun Quan, and he served his own ends in his actions (again just like Liu Bei and Sun Quan). On the other hand, however, he _was_ a very intelligent leader and a true visionary. He had the ambition and the talent to unify China, the fact that he failed is invalid because _he was dead_. If Cao Cao had lived beyond a normal lifespan he would have united China and dealt with the Sima clan.


I doubt it, Cao Cao was not the same after Chi Bi, and his defeat at Han Zhong also proved that. Besides, Cao Cao was 65 years old, if you add say 15 years to that, Lu Xun would still be alive to kick Cao Cao out of Wu, like Zhou Yu did at Chi Bi.
Sure he was intelligent but he also had a good number of defeats because he was either too arrogant or too ignorant.
Here is the proof:
- Cao Cao was heavily defeated by Xu Rong when chasing Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo into their own territory.
- Cao Cao was defeated many times by Yuan Shao and Lu Bu because he alone was not up to the task. He needed the Chens for Lu Bu, and his whole team of advisors for Guan Du.
- Cao Cao suffered his largest defeat at Chi Bi by under estimating the talents of Wu and their superiority in naval battle. Causing Wei's expanse to be set back severely.
- Cao Cao at Han Zhong was defeated because he was too impatient and was not able to match Liu Bei and Fa Zheng.
Soon after, Cao Cao died, so you have no real basis to support what you just said.


Zhuge Kongming wrote:Also, you cannot compare the slaughter of the family of someone that is executed to Hitler's actions against the Jews. Now I am going to say some things that might offend our sensitive moral code these days, but I will be blunt. When you are a political leader in a time like this and you kill an influential person others that are close to him will seek revenge. If you kill him and his immediate family you are just in many more times the trouble. Killing the whole household, in most instances, prevented any sort of vengeance. Was it ethical? Of course not. Was it necessary? Unfortunately the answer is probably yes.


Perhaps so, but like I stated before, Cao Cao lived in a time where he had millions of soldiers. How are Dong Cheng's infant children and grand children going to harm Cao Cao..ever? He could keep them in a palace, have them raised and never tell them the truth. That was the power of society in that era, but you need to do some research on this before you can accurately make statements.
If you want, I have books on social life and palace life in that era that I would be happy to share.
Prime Ministers and Emperors were gods of their household if they had enough talent, so killing those innocent children in my eyes, who totally unneccesary and unethical.

Zhuge Kongming wrote:If we are going to talk about the virtues of the military leaders of this era we need to speak in equal terms. I don't doubt for a second that the other political leaders of the time would have taken similar actions to maintain their own power.


That is why none of them should be world leaders, and either should Cao Cao be one.
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Unread postby Zuyen Yu » Thu Aug 29, 2002 11:56 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Zhang Liao17 wrote:Cao Cao is the greatest man to ever live. He was extremely successful as a troop leader and was among the best politicians of the time. He was a wonderful strategist and continued to demolish all opposing enemies until old age slowed him down. He was cunning and had a quick wit, nobody in the era was his equal. Cao Cao's cruelty only makes me like him more. I would have done everything he did, if I was in his shoes. He killed people like Dong Cheng only because they wanted to kill him. I don't see how anyone could like a pansy like Liu Bei, who cried whenever something went against him. Cao Cao was the greatest person of the era and he showed it time after time. Forget those passive losers like Liu Bei, Cao Cao was a real man.


A real man does not willingly slaughter innocent women and children. Dong Cheng's children and nephews had nothing to do with what he did but Cao Cao ordered them killed. He also had the consort of the Emperor, who was related to Dong Cheng strangled to death while she was pregnant!
Saying he was the greatest man who ever lived is utterly digusting and perverted. And a shame to all the good natured people who gave their lives to help others.
Bleh.


Totally agreed. Cao Cao was a scum. His brain was full of evil nerves that was why he had brain tumor, lol :lol:
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Unread postby Starscream » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:11 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
I doubt it, Cao Cao was not the same after Chi Bi, and his defeat at Han Zhong also proved that. Besides, Cao Cao was 65 years old, if you add say 15 years to that, Lu Xun would still be alive to kick Cao Cao out of Wu, like Zhou Yu did at Chi Bi.
Sure he was intelligent but he also had a good number of defeats because he was either too arrogant or too ignorant.
Here is the proof:
- Cao Cao was heavily defeated by Xu Rong when chasing Lu Bu and Dong Zhuo into their own territory.
- Cao Cao was defeated many times by Yuan Shao and Lu Bu because he alone was not up to the task. He needed the Chens for Lu Bu, and his whole team of advisors for Guan Du.
- Cao Cao suffered his largest defeat at Chi Bi by under estimating the talents of Wu and their superiority in naval battle. Causing Wei's expanse to be set back severely.
-


Cao Cao was defeated by Yuan Shao and Lu Bu a lot of times? Perhaps he did suffer minor defeats from both Yuan and Lu, but these are nothing compared to the defeats of Sun Quan at Hefei or Liu Bei at Xuzhou. Cao Cao was a capable military strategist who could lead armies personally. The battle of Guan Du's success is not solely attributed to Xun Yu and Xu You but also to Cao Cao mainly, because it was Cao Cao who lead a much smaller force to defeat Yuan Shao and won the battle very decisively.

Cao Cao's defeat at Chibi if taken from the historical point of view, was mainly due to diseases. His naval forces were actually trained somewhat before they head south, and this shows that he did not underestimate Wu.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Prime Ministers and Emperors were gods of their household if they had enough talent, so killing those innocent children in my eyes, who totally unneccesary and unethical.

Killing the innocent is of course unethical from the present day's point of view. But during the olden days, it is a strategically correct and effective method to get rid of adversaries completely in order to secure your stand in the political world. If killing the children is immoral, then is the killing of soldiers and men, acts done by almost all the RTK characters mentioned moral? In the olden context, I would consider deliberate killing for the joy of it, or to see people suffer, would then be truly immoral, eg Dong Zhuo. Otherwise if we count the number of killers in RTK, I'm afraid all of them would be condemned to the 18th level of hell.... :twisted:

Zhou Gongjin wrote:That is why none of them should be world leaders, and either should Cao Cao be one.
"I would rather betray the world, than let the world betray me."


This is unfortunate one the most famous distortions by LGZ. Cao Cao was never recorded to make such a statement. His actions however, did show his ambitions and his swift but cold actions taken against those that were his enemies.
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Unread postby Zuyen Yu » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:19 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:
Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Zhang Liao17 wrote:Cao Cao is the greatest man to ever live. He was extremely successful as a troop leader and was among the best politicians of the time. He was a wonderful strategist and continued to demolish all opposing enemies until old age slowed him down. He was cunning and had a quick wit, nobody in the era was his equal. Cao Cao's cruelty only makes me like him more. I would have done everything he did, if I was in his shoes. He killed people like Dong Cheng only because they wanted to kill him. I don't see how anyone could like a pansy like Liu Bei, who cried whenever something went against him. Cao Cao was the greatest person of the era and he showed it time after time. Forget those passive losers like Liu Bei, Cao Cao was a real man.


A real man does not willingly slaughter innocent women and children. Dong Cheng's children and nephews had nothing to do with what he did but Cao Cao ordered them killed. He also had the consort of the Emperor, who was related to Dong Cheng strangled to death while she was pregnant!
Saying he was the greatest man who ever lived is utterly digusting and perverted. And a shame to all the good natured people who gave their lives to help others.
Bleh.


Slaughtering the whole family is the right thing to do. Only a moron would leave the kids to grow up and avenge their father and the mother to create more children that want revenge. Everything Cao Cao did is justified in my book and nothing is going to change that. Cao Cao was the most talented man of the era and his "cruelty" helped him survive longer than most people could hope to. His "cruelty" was what helped to establish his kingdom and without it, he would have been assassinated. Both Sun Quan and Liu Bei would have perished if they were in his shoes, they were too weak.


You ddin't have to scacrified humanity for the unification of the country, cruelty made poeple fighting back even more which was why the RTK lasted so long of a period. If everone had a good heart and strived for a common goal (helping the Hans stand tall again). But instead most of them were self serving and power hungry "No matter whatever it take metality"...don't tell me that "cruelty" was the reason Cao Cao survived longer, think about this if you were a member of Dong Cheng family and you somehow survived what do you think about Cao Cao and what he did to your family?
You have sympathy for him because he had to do it or he's not evil he's just trying to last longer..."Oh pleazzze!"
:P
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