5 Generals of Wei.

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Who's the best

Xu Huang
20
23%
Zhang Liao
49
56%
Yu Jin
2
2%
Yue Jin
2
2%
Zhang He
14
16%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:50 am

Yes but being great warriors doesn't make them great generals though
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Striga » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:45 pm

I remember Pang De was mentioned multiple times in this thread, and he was just a warrior as well.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:19 pm

Striga wrote:I remember Pang De was mentioned multiple times in this thread, and he was just a warrior as well.


Actually, Pang De did serve as a general as noted below:

Taken from Pang De's SGZ wrote:Pang De and Ma Teng’s son – Ma Chao defended against Guo Yuan while Gao Gan was at Ping Yang. Pang De as the vanguard, advanced to attack Guo Yuan and Gao Gan. After decimating their armies, he personally beheaded Guo Yuan. (2). He was promoted to General of the Gentleman of the Household (zhong lang jiang) and made Marquis of a Chief Commune (du ting hou)


Those aren't regular warrior titles that he received and led men under.

Taken from Pang De's SGZ wrote:Afterwards he fought with Guan Yu in battle, and successfully shot him [with an arrow]. Pang De would often ride a white horse. The men of Guan Yu’s army referred to him as the ‘White horse General’ and they all feared him.


Guan Yu's men knew he was a general, or at the least, referred to as such.

Taken from Pang De's SGYY wrote:Zhang Lu’s best generals had been defeated and killed, so Pang De was summoned and given a force of ten thousand troops, which he camped three miles from the city of Nanzheng. With the camp secured, Pang De rode out and challenged the enemy. Zhang He came out and fought but retired after only a few bouts.


He was given men therefore it would be apparent that he had a leadershiprole under Zhang LU as well.

Taken from Pang De's SGYY wrote:When Cao Cao launched his assault on Ruxu, he split the army into five forces, each consisting of one hundred thousand men. One of these forces was placed under Pang De’s command


EDIT: Here is a clear indication that Pang De was a general in SGYY:

Pang De was made General Who Corrects the West and Leader of the Van.

The two men began to prepare the seven armies that had been placed at their command. However, Cao Cao summoned Pang De and ordered him to yield his seal as Leader of the Van. “O Prince, I was just about to show Your Highness what I can do. Why do you reject my services?” asked Pang De. “I do not doubt you, but Ma Chao is now in the west, and your brother also; both in the service of Liu Bei. I myself have no doubts, but what about the troops? What can I do?” (5) Pang De took off his headdress and knocked his head on the floor until blood covered his face. “Since I surrendered to you, O Prince, I have experienced much kindness, so that I would undergo any sufferings to show my gratitude. Why does Your Highness doubt me? When my brother and I were at home together, his wife was a wicked woman, and I slew her while I was drunk. My brother has never forgiven me, but is permeated with hate for me. He swears never to see me again, and we are enemies. For my old master, Ma Chao, I have profound contempt. He is bold, but only that, and was in a pitiable and dejected state when he found his way to the west. Now, like me, he serves his own master, but our friendship is at an end. How could I think of another after your kindness to me?” Cao Cao raised Pang De from the ground saying, “I have always known what a noble man you are, and what I said just now was to satisfy the feelings of other people. Now you can strive to win fame. If you do not turn your back on me, I shall not on you.”

The two marching commanders, Dong Heng and Dong Chao, objected to Pang De’s command of the van and complained to Yu Jin. Dong Heng said, “Sir General, the expedition you lead is for the relief of Fancheng, and it can confidently expect victory. But is it wise to place such as Pang De in command of the van? Pang De was once under the command of Ma Chao. He had no alternative but to surrender and fight for Wei. But his former chief is now in high honour in Shu, one of the Five Tiger Generals, and his own brother Pang Rou is there, too, as an officer. To send Pang De as Leader of the Van just now seems like trying to extinguish a fire with oil. Would it not be well to inform the Prince of Wei and ask him to exchange this man for another?” Yu Jin had agreed with them and had asked Cao Cao to remove Pang De as Leader of the Van.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Striga » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:04 am

In that case, then Dian Wei has lead regiments into battle, and covered Cao Cao's retreat with a small group before dying. Xu Chu lead the Tiger Guard, and at Chi Bi (and probably many other places), he also lead a regiment.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:47 am

Yet both were mainly captain of the bodyguards and things like that. True, Dian Wei sometimes used that to good effect but his record is not that of a great general. Pang De was a warrior but like Guan Yu (only without the suck), his main job was that of a general. Be it in the vanguard as he was constantly or commending one of the seven armies under Yu Jin. I don't think Pang De is anywhere near one of Wei's top 5 but he makes more sense as a general and as a pick then Dian Wei and Xu Chu.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Vitruvius » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:38 am

Zhang Liao: best warrior among the 5, the victory at Hefei kind of overshadowed the victories of other 4 generals, maybe thats why he is so highly rated? He does get a bonus for his loyalty though.

Xu Huang: Strong in military discipline and leadership, most famous achievement: lifting the siege of Fan. Also had other victories against Ma Chao and Liu Bei. Most reliable.

Yue Jin: Like, Zhang Liao, definitely one of the bravest and also a great warrior. I don't know much more about him and his SGZ is short.

Zhang He: Most versatile general, he would be classified as a stratgist if not for his martial abilities. Certainly the most talented all-round general of the 5. His loyalty is questionable though.

Yu Jin: Perhaps the greatest leader among the 5. Commands both fear and love in his troops and generals. His loss to Guan Yu was a fluke but unfortunately it remains the worst black mark among the 5 generals.

Ranking in 3 categories:
Martial skill:
Zhang Liao
Xu Huang
Yue Jin
Yu Jin
Zhang He

Leadership:
Yu Jin
Xu Huang
Zhang Liao
Zhang He
Yue Jin

Intelligence:
Zhang He
Yu Jin
Zhang Liao
Xu Huang
Yue Jin

To describe each of them in 1 word:
Zhang Liao: dominating
Xu Huang: reliable
Yue Jin: brave
Yu Jin: disciplined
Zhang He: versatile

Each of them made valuable contributions, each of them have valuable strengths which makes them stand out from the others. Therefore, lets honor them altogether and stop bashing them, especially the poor Yu Jin and Yue Jin...
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:49 am

Whose bashing them?
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:26 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Whose bashing them?


Don't really know. I do think that Yu Jin has been undeservedly bashed in history. He did the human thing to beg. It's nt honourable, but not many were back then. His past victories should make up for it. In the novel it's easy to hate him. Pang De might have beaten Guan Yu if he didn't pull back...

I think Zhang Liao was the greatest. I know, I Know, so typical. Zhang He would be number two. Xu Huang was no doubt wise and talented, but Fancheng was his only giant accomplishment. Yue Jin really rode off of Zhang Liao's tail feathers.
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Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Gray Riders » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:36 pm

Shen Ai wrote:Yue Jin really rode off of Zhang Liao's tail feathers.

But Zhang Liao had nothing to do with Yue Jin's many accomplishments that weren't Hefei. Yue Jin was recorded to have killed several enemy officers, he defeated Guan Yu and Su Fei, he led a flank that forced Gao Gan to withdraw, and he had other accomplishments. Why say he was merely following Zhang Liao? Most people barely even mention him or Li Dian at Hefei.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby epaminondas146871 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:53 pm

I agree with Shen Ai, but place Xu Huang above Zhang He.

In support of Zhang Liao:

http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/zhangliao.php

People tend to overlook Zhang Liao's intelligence, but as we can see from SGZ, he deduced a man was willing to surrender among other feats.
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