5 Generals of Wei.

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Who's the best

Xu Huang
20
23%
Zhang Liao
49
56%
Yu Jin
2
2%
Yue Jin
2
2%
Zhang He
14
16%
 
Total votes : 87

Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:16 am

Yang Dayang wrote:- Xu Huang
- Zhang Liao
- Yue Jin
- Zhang He
- Yu Jin

Xu Huang was simply perfect. He showed great might at Fan Castle and amazing leadership qualities in Hanzhong and Tong Gate. He performed admirably in every task given to him, and excelled in both planning and fighting. Zhang Liao comes closely second, he is on Xu Huang's level when it comes to leadership, and probably exceeds him in martial prowess but I think Xu Huang is better when it comes to planning. Yue Jin is really underrated, he defeated Liu Bei twice and we know how good Liu Bei is.

Zhang He is awesome, but losing to Zhang Fei at Baxi makes the others seem better than him. Yu Jin was great, but I feel he was more of a general than an actual commander.

Cao Ren, Deng Ai and Chen Tai are amazing as well. I'd say Deng Ai is better than Zhang Liao. Cao Ren is better than Zhang He, and maybe on Yue Jin's level. Chen Tai is just... there... somewhere *Chen Tai biased fanboy here lol*


Agree with everything you said about Xu Huang but i don't think Cao Ren was better than Zhang He. Cao Ren was definitely good but he was beaten by Zhou Yu, Lu Meng and co when IMO certainly not at a disadvantage numerically or otherwise. I think Zhang He's defeat to Zhang Fei is not a stain on his record. Rather i think it shows how skilfull Zhang Fei was. Besides Zhang He had progressed far into enemy turf and he was still promoted despite that defeat showing he had done his job well. I'd rate Zhang He above Cao Ren and i actually think he was a better commander than Zhang Liao too.

Cao Ren was good don’t get me wrong but I think he was quite fortunate in one regard. Cao Cao regularly made a point of giving his relatives the most senior positions even if they were less capable because of service time/trust. Xiahou Dun’s a great example of this. Xu Huang was stuck being subordinate to Cao Ren in Jiangling. Obviously that’s understandable but imagine if Xu Huang was in command. Would the battle have been lost? Zhang He was subordinate to Xiahou Yuan but it’s quite clear that Zhang was a superior general. That’s why I wouldn’t rate Cao Ren above Zhang He.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby epaminondas146871 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:13 pm

Hyper90 wrote:
XuSheng wrote:
Yang Dayang wrote:Chen Tai is just... there... somewhere *Chen Tai biased fanboy here lol*


ahah I agree Chen Tai is God :shock:


if that is the case, between zhong hui and chen tai, who is better ? :|


Chen Tai by far.

Yang Dayang wrote:- Xu Huang
- Zhang Liao
- Yue Jin
- Zhang He
- Yu Jin

Xu Huang was simply perfect. He showed great might at Fan Castle and amazing leadership qualities in Hanzhong and Tong Gate. He performed admirably in every task given to him, and excelled in both planning and fighting. Zhang Liao comes closely second, he is on Xu Huang's level when it comes to leadership, and probably exceeds him in martial prowess but I think Xu Huang is better when it comes to planning. Yue Jin is really underrated, he defeated Liu Bei twice and we know how good Liu Bei is.

Zhang He is awesome, but losing to Zhang Fei at Baxi makes the others seem better than him. Yu Jin was great, but I feel he was more of a general than an actual commander.

Cao Ren, Deng Ai and Chen Tai are amazing as well. I'd say Deng Ai is better than Zhang Liao. Cao Ren is better than Zhang He, and maybe on Yue Jin's level. Chen Tai is just... there... somewhere *Chen Tai biased fanboy here lol*


Zhang Liao is very close to Xu Huang, but I wouldn't yet say that Xu Huang's planning can exceed both Zhang Liao's leadership and martial prowess. Because we refer to history and not the novel, it is very close. Novel-wise Zhang Liao's He Fei exploits make him the best by far. Another thing typically overlooked is Zhang Liao's non-He Fei military services. He enticed Chang Xi at Donghai during a siege to surrender because he successfully analyzed that Chang Xi was unsure of his course of action. In the North, Zhang Liao distinguished himself as a general and warrior against the remnants of the Yuan's and bandits. Zhang Liao's decisive action also led to the subduction of Chen Lan and Mei Cheng. As a warrior, He Fei was all that was necessary to prove himself. Before he died, he defeated Lu Fan as well.

So my rankings would be...

1. Zhang Liao (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Commander, Planner)
2. Xu Huang (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Planner, Good Commander)
3. Zhang He (Excellent Leader, Great Planner, Commander, Very cautious)
4. Yue Jin (Excellent Warrior, Good Leader)
5. Yu Jin (Good Leader, Commander)
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:29 pm

Elitemsh wrote:
Yang Dayang wrote:- Xu Huang
- Zhang Liao
- Yue Jin
- Zhang He
- Yu Jin

Xu Huang was simply perfect. He showed great might at Fan Castle and amazing leadership qualities in Hanzhong and Tong Gate. He performed admirably in every task given to him, and excelled in both planning and fighting. Zhang Liao comes closely second, he is on Xu Huang's level when it comes to leadership, and probably exceeds him in martial prowess but I think Xu Huang is better when it comes to planning. Yue Jin is really underrated, he defeated Liu Bei twice and we know how good Liu Bei is.

Zhang He is awesome, but losing to Zhang Fei at Baxi makes the others seem better than him. Yu Jin was great, but I feel he was more of a general than an actual commander.

Cao Ren, Deng Ai and Chen Tai are amazing as well. I'd say Deng Ai is better than Zhang Liao. Cao Ren is better than Zhang He, and maybe on Yue Jin's level. Chen Tai is just... there... somewhere *Chen Tai biased fanboy here lol*


Agree with everything you said about Xu Huang but i don't think Cao Ren was better than Zhang He. Cao Ren was definitely good but he was beaten by Zhou Yu, Lu Meng and co when IMO certainly not at a disadvantage numerically or otherwise. I think Zhang He's defeat to Zhang Fei is not a stain on his record. Rather i think it shows how skilfull Zhang Fei was. Besides Zhang He had progressed far into enemy turf and he was still promoted despite that defeat showing he had done his job well. I'd rate Zhang He above Cao Ren and i actually think he was a better commander than Zhang Liao too.

Cao Ren was good don’t get me wrong but I think he was quite fortunate in one regard. Cao Cao regularly made a point of giving his relatives the most senior positions even if they were less capable because of service time/trust. Xiahou Dun’s a great example of this. Xu Huang was stuck being subordinate to Cao Ren in Jiangling. Obviously that’s understandable but imagine if Xu Huang was in command. Would the battle have been lost? Zhang He was subordinate to Xiahou Yuan but it’s quite clear that Zhang was a superior general. That’s why I wouldn’t rate Cao Ren above Zhang He.


Zhang He lost to Zhuge Liang in a couple of occasions as well.

Most of what we have points out that Cao Ren was in a numerical disadvantage. Him recruiting a couple of hundred soldiers quickly makes me think he was in a numerical disadvantage, at least at the start of the long battle. He attacked Gan Ning with 5-6 thousand men, we can guess he has at least the same number in Jiangling. That means he has 15k max. Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu had what remained from Chibi, and it's roughly 20-30k. Don't forget that Guan Yu was sent as reinforcement before Li Tong drove him out, also don't forget that many defected to Wu just before the battle. If anything, I say he was in a numerical disadvantage, we can all doubt how serious this disadvantage was though.

Also, holding out for a full year against the high-moraled Wu forces merits credit. His forces were devastated after the loss, and Cao Cao had yet to organise himself. Cao Ren practically saved the day, and even after the loss, he was didn't get demoted. Cao Ren's bio is full of other notable achievements, his exploits at Wan and Fan were also great. Zhang He was good, I fully believe that if was given command at Hanzhong (even though he wasn't good there..), or against Zhuge Liang, he would shine more, but I see Cao Ren as a better commander and a FAR better fighter. Zhang He is probably a better tactician though.

I highly doubt Cao Cao gave Cao Ren a high rank because of his family. Sure, Xiahou Dun had a terrible military career but once he got his chances, and screwed up, he barely held command and was often under Cao Cao's eyes. The only time he was left alone, at Ruxu, his forces were under orders not to engage the enemy and the matters were quickly disbanded with Quan's surrender. Looking at Cao Cao's career, he valued talent and only talent. He hated the Han's way of employing people, it relied on people recommending others and he sought to employ the able, which the gentry didn't seem to like I imagine.

Xiahou Dun getting a high rank has enough reason in my opinion. Xiahou Dun was with Cao Cao ever since his first steps, and certainly developed great prestige being a veteran. I think Cao Cao was obliged to honor him, at it was good to him. In my opinion, Cao Cao did the right thing, and Xiahou Dun only held honorable and domestic ranks. It wasn't like Guan Yu and Liu Bei.. heh

1. Zhang Liao (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Commander, Planner)
2. Xu Huang (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Planner, Good Commander)


I'd say Xu Huang is a great commander, looking at his huge list of achievements. Honestly though, even if he was just a "good" commander, I say that makes him better than Zhang Liao. Based on your rankings, Xu Huang is more than capable in every department, while Zhang Liao was just "a planner". I used that logic to choose Xu Huang over Liao.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby epaminondas146871 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:43 pm

Yang Dayang wrote:
1. Zhang Liao (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Commander, Planner)
2. Xu Huang (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Planner, Good Commander)


I'd say Xu Huang is a great commander, looking at his huge list of achievements. Honestly though, even if he was just a "good" commander, I say that makes him better than Zhang Liao. Based on your rankings, Xu Huang is more than capable in every department, while Zhang Liao was just "a planner". I used that logic to choose Xu Huang over Liao.


Sorry, that was my bad. I meant that all of the following were under the adjective, so:

Zhang Liao (Excellent Leader, Excellent Warrior, Great Commander, Great Planner)
Xu Huang (Excellent Leader, Excellent Warrior, Great Commander, Good Planner)

Discussions about this are also bound to be subjective, because if general A defeats general B and general C defeats general D, who's better, A or C? That depends on the skill of B and D, and that is another argument in itself.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby theconqueror87 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:05 pm

While I have to admit I admire Zhang Liao, I have always been partial to Xu Huang. Maybe that is just a leftover from DW and my love of axes. :lol:
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby XuSheng » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:58 pm

theconqueror87 wrote:While I have to admit I admire Zhang Liao, I have always been partial to Xu Huang. Maybe that is just a leftover from DW and my love of axes. :lol:


I love so much more Zhang He and Xu Huang than Zhang Liao so that's not DW fault ahah :lol:
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Mick7 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:27 pm

ahh, apologies dong zhou, that was liu bei that said that quote. thanks for the correction.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:13 pm

epaminondas146871 wrote:
Yang Dayang wrote:- Xu Huang
- Zhang Liao
- Yue Jin
- Zhang He
- Yu Jin

Xu Huang was simply perfect. He showed great might at Fan Castle and amazing leadership qualities in Hanzhong and Tong Gate. He performed admirably in every task given to him, and excelled in both planning and fighting. Zhang Liao comes closely second, he is on Xu Huang's level when it comes to leadership, and probably exceeds him in martial prowess but I think Xu Huang is better when it comes to planning. Yue Jin is really underrated, he defeated Liu Bei twice and we know how good Liu Bei is.

Zhang He is awesome, but losing to Zhang Fei at Baxi makes the others seem better than him. Yu Jin was great, but I feel he was more of a general than an actual commander.

Cao Ren, Deng Ai and Chen Tai are amazing as well. I'd say Deng Ai is better than Zhang Liao. Cao Ren is better than Zhang He, and maybe on Yue Jin's level. Chen Tai is just... there... somewhere *Chen Tai biased fanboy here lol*


Zhang Liao is very close to Xu Huang, but I wouldn't yet say that Xu Huang's planning can exceed both Zhang Liao's leadership and martial prowess. Because we refer to history and not the novel, it is very close. Novel-wise Zhang Liao's He Fei exploits make him the best by far. Another thing typically overlooked is Zhang Liao's non-He Fei military services. He enticed Chang Xi at Donghai during a siege to surrender because he successfully analyzed that Chang Xi was unsure of his course of action. In the North, Zhang Liao distinguished himself as a general and warrior against the remnants of the Yuan's and bandits. Zhang Liao's decisive action also led to the subduction of Chen Lan and Mei Cheng. As a warrior, He Fei was all that was necessary to prove himself. Before he died, he defeated Lu Fan as well.

So my rankings would be...

1. Zhang Liao (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Commander, Planner)
2. Xu Huang (Excellent Leader, Warrior, Great Planner, Good Commander)
3. Zhang He (Excellent Leader, Great Planner, Commander, Very cautious)
4. Yue Jin (Excellent Warrior, Good Leader)
5. Yu Jin (Good Leader, Commander)


I agree greatly with the assessment each of you gave regarding the 5 Wei generals. In my opinion, I would alter mines slightly for some of the reasons given above.

1. Xu Huang, as Yang Dayang put it, he was simply perfect
2. Zhang Liao, I would've put him first had I not read up on Xu Huang during that draft we had
3. Zhang He, a bit slighted due to the defeats he suffered
4. Yue Jin, he was noted for being the main van general of the group and his SGZ reflects a great if not awesome general
5. Yu Jin, I can think of a few other guys that Wei had that may be better than he was i.e. Li Tong, Zhu Ling (who was considered comparable to Xu Huang
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby epaminondas146871 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:22 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:5. Yu Jin, I can think of a few other guys that Wei had that may be better than he was i.e. Li Tong, Zhu Ling (who was considered comparable to Xu Huang


I hate that so many great generals like Zang Ba, Lu Fan, Cao Zhang, Gao Shun, Li Tong and Zhu Ling as you said, and many many more are slighted with 70's - 80's Ldr/War in RTK XI.

I can live with Xu Huang being better than Zhang Liao. They're both fantastic and I think Xu Huang surpasses Zhang Liao in places.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Striga » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:30 pm

In all of this, I haven't seen Xu Chu and Dian Wei mentioned at all. They were Cao Cao's most powerful warriors. Though not exactly Generals. Then again, Pang De was more of a warrior than a general as well.
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