5 Generals of Wei.

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Who's the best

Xu Huang
19
22%
Zhang Liao
49
57%
Yu Jin
2
2%
Yue Jin
2
2%
Zhang He
14
16%
 
Total votes : 86

Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:05 pm

Shen Ai wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Whose bashing them?


Don't really know. I do think that Yu Jin has been undeservedly bashed in history. He did the human thing to beg. It's nt honourable, but not many were back then.


Yu Jin didn't beg. He surrended which IMO is fine because he never actually fought for Shu or Wu. So i don't see how it's a betrayal. I also don't see how it's any worse than Huang Quan, who was loyal to Liu Bei but surrended to Wei because he couldn't return to Liu Bei. Cao Pi commended Huang Quan (if i remember correctly) and yet he mocked Yu JIn. Not much of a difference IMO. I don't see anything wrong with either surrenders.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Gray Riders » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:24 pm

Elitemsh wrote:Yu Jin didn't beg. He surrended which IMO is fine because he never actually fought for Shu or Wu. So i don't see how it's a betrayal. I also don't see how it's any worse than Huang Quan, who was loyal to Liu Bei but surrended to Wei because he couldn't return to Liu Bei. Cao Pi commended Huang Quan (if i remember correctly) and yet he mocked Yu JIn. Not much of a difference IMO. I don't see anything wrong with either surrenders.

Yeah, I think Yu Jin gets way too much detraction for Fan. It's almost like his (what was it? 23 or so?) years of distinguished service suddenly vanished overnight. I guess it wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't for the other members of the Five who surrendered tending to get slack for it, despite actually fighting for their new lord, while Yu Jin gets turned into the coward or the incompetent.

Edit: Per the topic, I think it comes down to Zhang Liao or Xu Huang which was the best (good as he was, Zhang He's loss to Zhang Fei is why I place him a bit lower). I kind of favor Xu Huang for complicated reasons this isn't the topic for.
Last edited by Gray Riders on Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:25 pm

Gray Riders wrote:
Elitemsh wrote:Yu Jin didn't beg. He surrended which IMO is fine because he never actually fought for Shu or Wu. So i don't see how it's a betrayal. I also don't see how it's any worse than Huang Quan, who was loyal to Liu Bei but surrended to Wei because he couldn't return to Liu Bei. Cao Pi commended Huang Quan (if i remember correctly) and yet he mocked Yu JIn. Not much of a difference IMO. I don't see anything wrong with either surrenders.

Yeah, I think Yu Jin gets way too much detraction for Fan. It's almost like his (what was it? 23 or so?) years of distinguished service suddenly vanished overnight. I guess it wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't for the other members of the Five who surrendered tending to get slack for it, despite actually fighting for their new lord, while Yu Jin gets turned into the coward or the incompetent.


Yue Jin defeated Guan Yu? Don't think I've heard that one. But thanks for the info, looks like I underestimated the guy.

Cao Pi commended Huang Quan when he heard that he mourned for Liu Bei, despite the ridicule he received from the Shu army.
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Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Striga » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:58 am

Fan Cheng was the only place where I remember Yu Jin, and it gives a horrible impression of him. This forum has changed my mind about him though. What exactly did his other achievements consist of? Also, was Fan Cheng that bad of a defeat for him, or just another one of Guan Yu's over-exaggerated achievements?
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:24 am

Striga wrote:Fan Cheng was the only place where I remember Yu Jin, and it gives a horrible impression of him. This forum has changed my mind about him though. What exactly did his other achievements consist of? Also, was Fan Cheng that bad of a defeat for him, or just another one of Guan Yu's over-exaggerated achievements?


Most claim that Guan Yu flooded the castle and pretty much whipped Wei into submission. But the flood was a natural occurrence. Guan Yu jut took advantage of it. Before that Yu Jin and Pang De were doing a good job of keeping the enemy at bay. Really it was bad luck more than anything.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:57 am

Striga wrote:Fan Cheng was the only place where I remember Yu Jin, and it gives a horrible impression of him. This forum has changed my mind about him though. What exactly did his other achievements consist of? Also, was Fan Cheng that bad of a defeat for him, or just another one of Guan Yu's over-exaggerated achievements?


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“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:14 pm

Shen Ai wrote:Most claim that Guan Yu flooded the castle and pretty much whipped Wei into submission. But the flood was a natural occurrence. Guan Yu jut took advantage of it. Before that Yu Jin and Pang De were doing a good job of keeping the enemy at bay. Really it was bad luck more than anything.


My belief is that Guan Yu timed his attack in accordance with the flooding and internal problems in Wei (a number of little rebellions against Wei close to where Guan Yu was). It was Cao Ren that stationed Yu JIn on open land in front of the city despite the fact that the water level rising was common knowledge at the time (to those close to that region). A comment from some Wei officers in the ZZTJ proves this to be so (hence why i believe Guan Yu timed his approach with it). Anyhow, Yu Jin's position was Cao Ren's judgment call. It's possible that Guan Yu judged the situation better than the Wei officers when he started his attack. Or it was just luck but i can't say for sure either way. For certain though i don't think Yu Jin made any mistakes but Ren i'm not so certain of.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Rydain » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:49 pm

Elitemsh wrote:My belief is that Guan Yu timed his attack in accordance with the flooding and internal problems in Wei (a number of little rebellions against Wei close to where Guan Yu was). It was Cao Ren that stationed Yu JIn on open land in front of the city despite the fact that the water level rising was common knowledge at the time (to those close to that region). A comment from some Wei officers in the ZZTJ proves this to be so (hence why i believe Guan Yu timed his approach with it). Anyhow, Yu Jin's position was Cao Ren's judgment call. It's possible that Guan Yu judged the situation better than the Wei officers when he started his attack. Or it was just luck but i can't say for sure either way. For certain though i don't think Yu Jin made any mistakes but Ren i'm not so certain of.


Cao Ren actually stationed Yu Jin and Pang De 10 li north of Fan. They were washed out because the whole region was a flood basin under two weeks of extraordinarily heavy rainfall. From Rafe's biography of Cao Cao:

Strategically it was a strong position, for below Xiangyang and Fan the river runs through a comparatively narrow pass between high ground on the east and west. Unfortunately, however, the open ground about the twin cities receives water not only from the Han but also from a great number of tributaries which flow south across the open country of Nanyang, and the narrows of the Han can slow the escape. Just as Guan Yu was approaching, the autumn rains brought massive flooding onto Cao Ren's positions, and his surrounding camps were overwhelmed by metres of water.


Some degree of seasonal overflow would be expected, but severe rains are another matter that can turn catastrophic quickly when they overwhelm natural drainage. When your only weather predictions are rough seasonal estimates of precipitation trends, there's no way to plan for the difference between typical overflow and a freak flood. Going by reasonable expectations of seasonal weather, I'm not sure where else Ren should have stationed 40,000+ troops within a convenient quick march of Fan.
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby Striga » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:53 pm

Did Guan Yu actually plan it and make ships for the assault, or just take advantage of the flood when he suddenly noticed it. Or, did Ma Liang note it and advise Guan Yu on that?
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Re: 5 Generals of Wei.

Unread postby wk123 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:23 am

Iain wrote:
starting-line wrote:How come i never heard him in the book? hows his battling skill?
You need to read Chapter 97 again very carefully and see the achievement of Hao Zhao who held off the entire Shu army of Zhuge Liang for over a month with just 3000 men in his castle. As for battling skill thats irreverent here.
I would nominate Hao Zhao and also Man Chong. However, their merits might have been earned under Cao Pi and not Cao Cao

Man Chong mostly did administration work under Cao Cao


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