Guan Yu's jealousness

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:59 am

guan yan wrote:guan yu had enough fame in fighting ability he would not have to fight from their his glory was at a level were he could leave it.


evidently, he didn't think so.

Are we speaking novel or historically here?
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16770
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby Guan Yan » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:03 am

historical he had enough accoplishments in fighting ability.
Guan Yan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1859
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Central coast

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:40 am

Also guan yu had accoplishments as such if not better in fighting ability that is why he is named the tigar general of his time and worth 10,000 men on the battle feild and unsurpassed among his fellows and had much praise from Cao Cao. He was said to run threw enemy lines without fear.


along with five others, along with Zhang Fei, no he wasn't, true but so did Ma Chao and where did that last bit come from?

I would not say that Guan's greatest accoplishment was killing yan liang at all but his skill on the battlefeild. He is the one that saved liu bei with fresh men at changben against a bigger force due to his trained men and himself fighting his way threw and Cao Cao withdrew.


Guan Yu's sgz says Cao Cao gave chase till Changban at Dangyang. Liu Bei hereby crossed over to Hanjin and met Guan Yu’s fleet and together they moved to Xiakou so Cao Cao had already stopped and Liu Bei went to meet up with Guan Yu.

And his intellegence as a general lacked at some points but at fan it is believeable that he lost mi fang had gone over to wu and taken the castle sane with fu shi ren with lu meng lu xun at the rear of the armyand with Cao Cao's forces (xu huang, Cao ren) at the front what do you expect.


He wasn't even aware of Mi Fang and Fu Shi's defection when Xu Huang defeated him and drove him back to Jing. A Jing where his errors had cost him
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16770
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby Guan Yan » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:15 am

Guan yu was honored for his skill greater than zhang fei even though on the battle feild thay were said to be equal but in historic events their bravery is the same their fighting skill guan yu for he is praised more giving him the edge even though they were said to be even. Ma Chao was not praised more than Guan and that last bit i think i got it mixed with the novel.

and guan at chang ban i am trying to remember where i read that i will tell you when i find it.

If mi fang and fushi ren did not surrender thay could have had time to sort things out but it was a rush with what happened.
Guan Yan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1859
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Central coast

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:32 am

so quantity not quality of praise?

I'm pretty sure you got it mixed up with the novel

Would have been a rush had he been aware but he wasn't till he returned home
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16770
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby Guan Yan » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:54 am

No, more praise and better praise better accomplishments on the battle feild favoured by cao cao more than dain wei thats impressive (just thought i would bring that up :D ) unsurpassed among fellows does that beat zhang fei i wonder but that is one persons opinion cheng said they were even so did chen zhou.
Guan Yan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1859
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Central coast

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:24 am

Shield wrote:I do not think it is fair to say that Zhao Yun was braver than Guan Yu just because his feats at Chang Ban required more from Zhao Yun and Guan Yu feats against Yan Liang required less from Guan Yu. Had Guan Yu been there at Chang Ban in Zhao Yun situation I do not doubt that he would have done the same thing Zhao Yun did.


Absolutely not. There is no way that Guan Yu would have done the same thing if he was in Yun's place. Liu Bei's family was left behind many times before Changban and Guan Yu never turned back and he could have if he wanted to. Guan Yu was brave but he was no hero. Zhao Yun was a hero and he was selfless (some of his later deeds prove this), that is why he went back. It wasn't all about bravery, even a common person can be brave but to be a hero is far more difficult. It is alright if you think Guan Yu was as brave or braver, but to say that he would have done the same thing as Zhao Yun if he was there is completely illogical.
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: London

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:43 am

guan yan wrote:No, more praise and better praise better accomplishments on the battle feild favoured by cao cao more than dain wei thats impressive (just thought i would bring that up :D ) unsurpassed among fellows does that beat zhang fei i wonder but that is one persons opinion cheng said they were even so did chen zhou.


Cao Cao also praised Cao Ren, Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Zhang He, Yu Jin etc. The praise he gave them was no less than Guan Yu.

You keep bringing up the ''unsurpassed among his fellows'' comment of Zhuge Liang, even though it has been completely countered on more than one occasion. You seem to ignore everything you do not want to here. That is not the way to learn. You must be willing to accept someone else's argument if it is supported by fact or/and logic and then change your view accordingly. We all start here lacking knowledge, but if you want to better yourself then try to be more flexible. I am just trying to help you by giving some friendly advice so don't be offended.
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: London

Unread postby Shield » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:59 pm

Elitemsh wrote:
Shield wrote:I do not think it is fair to say that Zhao Yun was braver than Guan Yu just because his feats at Chang Ban required more from Zhao Yun and Guan Yu feats against Yan Liang required less from Guan Yu. Had Guan Yu been there at Chang Ban in Zhao Yun situation I do not doubt that he would have done the same thing Zhao Yun did.


Absolutely not. There is no way that Guan Yu would have done the same thing if he was in Yun's place. Liu Bei's family was left behind many times before Changban and Guan Yu never turned back and he could have if he wanted to. Guan Yu was brave but he was no hero. Zhao Yun was a hero and he was selfless (some of his later deeds prove this), that is why he went back. It wasn't all about bravery, even a common person can be brave but to be a hero is far more difficult. It is alright if you think Guan Yu was as brave or braver, but to say that he would have done the same thing as Zhao Yun if he was there is completely illogical.


Zhao Yun was left in charge of Liu Bei family while Guan Yu was in charge of getting reinforcement from Jiang Xia. How could Guan Yu have known that Liu Bei family was left behind and go back for them? He wasn't even there!!! Heck even Zhang Fei who was there and didn't even know about the family being left behind or went back for them. He too had his own responsibility and so does everyone else. Should we fault them for not knowing about the situation or not even there to help?

There is nothing to suggest that Guan Yu would not have done the same thing had he been there, but there are evidences that he would have had he been there and knew the situation. Does he care about Liu Bei family as much if not more than Zhao Yun? How could he not? They were as close if not closer than blood brother where as Zhao Yun was a subordinate. Further evidence was how he cared for Liu Bei wives when Cao Cao came attacked them before. Liu Bei fled while Guan Yu guarded the wives. Did he not do everything in his power to assure their safety? He even sacrificed his pride and honor by yielded to the Han and thus had to work for Cao Cao. Does he afraid of dying? This is a guy who told Sun Quan to go to hell when he was captured along with many other times that he showed no fear(such as when surrounded by Cao Cao and never thought about leaving Liu Bei wives or surrender to save himself). So basically you have someone who care about Liu Bei family as much as Zhao Yun, if not more, and had showed no fear of dying or death, and you think he would not have done the same thing had he been in Zhao Yun shoe?:shock:
Shield
Assistant
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:34 pm

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:35 pm

I was talking historically, you are using fiction from the novel to support your view.

Historically Zhao Yun was not placed in charge of Liu Bei's family. When i said that Guan Yu could have gone back to rescue the family, i meant those other times before Changban. You clearly didn't bother to read my post properly. There is no proof that Zhang Fei did not know that Liu Bei's family was left behind, in fact it is likely that he did. The only responsibility Liu Bei's generals had was to flee from the battle. You are using fiction from the novel to back your viewpoint.

Historically, there is no proof that Guan Yu cared especially for Liu Bei's family. He did not give conditions when surrendering to Cao Cao, this is more fiction from the novel. Guan Yu was ordered to guard Xia Pi, if he fled he would have been a joke.

You were clearly referring to the novel Guan Yu, whilst i was referring to the historical situation.
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: London

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved