Guan Yu's jealousness

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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:52 am

Correction you are blowing out of proportion. I stated them as facts and as a challenge to someone who said that there was absolutely no jealousy.

As to the arrogance, that could be seen as directly contributing to causing his officers to betray him, says Zhuge Liang.


Just in the context of the discussion we are looking for jealously as a major flaw in Guan Yu's character and not simply as one or two isolated events minor events in history that show Guan Yu's jealously as nothing more than a minor trait of his and thus not a major flaw.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:33 pm

I don't think this topic is to place jealousness as the major flaw of Guan (according to the first post), but anyways, maybe the following discussion imply that.
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:26 am

What has guan have to be jellous about his bravery is unsurpased his prowess is unsurpased guan is more famous for his skill on the battlefeild.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:08 am

guan yan wrote:What has guan have to be jellous about his bravery is unsurpased his prowess is unsurpased guan is more famous for his skill on the battlefeild.


I beg to differ. Historically, Zhao Yun surpassed Guan Yu in terms of bravery at least. Zhao Yun has far more deeds to his name showing bravery than Guan Yu. Zhao Yun was nicknamed 'General of Tiger Might' by the army. I would think that this shows that he was the bravest in Shu. I read somewhere that Chen Dao was known to be second in bravery in Shu to only Zhao Yun. This would imply that Zhao Yun was considered the bravest amongst his peers.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:26 pm

Guan Yu had been stuck in Jing where he had only suffered defeats while this Ma Chao had been of famed lineage and had nearly killed Cao Cao. Guan Yu may have been seething and continued to do so at being left out as it were while everyone else gained fame
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:15 am

guan yu had enough fame in fighting ability he would not have to fight from their his glory was at a level were he could leave it.

Name zhao yun's great feats of bravery that can beat cuting your way threw 10,000 men to kill a highly ranked general yan liang and surpass his bravery on the battle feild.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:44 am

Changban should be enough!
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:47 am

guan yan wrote:guan yu had enough fame in fighting ability he would not have to fight from their his glory was at a level were he could leave it.

Name zhao yun's great feats of bravery that can beat cuting your way threw 10,000 men to kill a highly ranked general yan liang and surpass his bravery on the battle feild.


I think you have been playing too much dynasty warriors. Guan Yu did not literally cut his way through 10,000 men. He commited a surprise attack with Zhang Liao and a small more controllable army. Yan Liang's troops panicked and Yan Liang could not restore order. The panic of his troops caused chaos and Yan Liang himself was confused and swiftly cut down. I would not call this an amazing feat at all.

Compare this to Zhao Yun. In AD 219, Zhao Yun met unexpectly with Cao Cao main force while looking for Huang Zhong. Zhao Yun was completely outnumbered. Zhao Yun had just a few dozen cavalry as Huang Zhong had taken most of their troops. He charged the enemy lines and they scattered briefly but then surrounded him (like Sun Quan did to Zhang Liao at He Fei). Zhao Yun fought his way out and yet his subordinate was trapped behind. Zhao Yun charged back into the enemy army (unlike Guan Yu it wasn't a surprise attack as the enemy was prepared) and saved his officer. They then retreated to camp. Zhang Yi (in charge of the camp) naturally wanted to shut the gates because of the massive army approaching but Zhao Yun bravely flung open the gates and ordered silence. Zhao Yun hid archers in the camp and as Cao Cao's army approached they feared an ambush and fled. Zhao Yun attacked them with arrows from behind and routed them. As Liu Bei rightfully said, 'Zhao Yun has valor through and through'.

In the above feat Zhao Yun showed not only great courage but also intelligence and adaptability. Guan Yu's raid was a planned surpise attack whereas Zhao Yun had to face a far more powerful army completely by accident. Zhao Yun's feat here surpasses Guan Yu's charge in every way i can think of. You need to think more of the circumstances of each conflict, instead of taking everything so literally. If this is not enough proof, I can give you Zhao Yun's historical Changban feat which was also very impressive if you consider all sides.
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:17 pm

I am not saying he killed 10,000 men but there must have been people in the way yan liang you cant be sure he did not notice guan's coming and i would say that Guan is very brave to do this.

Also guan yu had accoplishments as such if not better in fighting ability that is why he is named the tigar general of his time and worth 10,000 men on the battle feild and unsurpassed among his fellows and had much praise from Cao Cao. He was said to run threw enemy lines without fear.

I would not say that Guan's greatest accoplishment was killing yan liang at all but his skill on the battlefeild. He is the one that saved liu bei with fresh men at changben against a bigger force due to his trained men and himself fighting his way threw and Cao Cao withdrew.

And his intellegence as a general lacked at some points but at fan it is believeable that he lost mi fang had gone over to wu and taken the castle sane with fu shi ren with lu meng lu xun at the rear of the armyand with Cao Cao's forces (xu huang, Cao ren) at the front what do you expect.

So Guan yu might not surpass zhao yun's brains but surely in fighting ability.
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Unread postby Shield » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:42 am

I do not think it is fair to say that Zhao Yun was braver than Guan Yu just because his feats at Chang Ban required more from Zhao Yun and Guan Yu feats against Yan Liang required less from Guan Yu. Had Guan Yu been there at Chang Ban in Zhao Yun situation I do not doubt that he would have done the same thing Zhao Yun did.

Beside, Guan Yu also showed great courage at other time such as when he left Cao Cao service knowing that he would have to face many obstacles on the way. He also knowingly visited Lu Su when he knew there was great danger and possibly ambushes waiting for him. I do not think we can ignore Guan Yu courage for going and his preparation/wit to get away unharmed there.
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