Guan Yu's jealousness

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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:58 am

Guan Yu's famed 'arrogance' is pointed out by many people, but in truth it the evidence to back the opinion he is arrogant is rather thin (historical).

The Ma Chao story has been pointed by Pei's notes as false, considering that Guan Yu never set foot in Sichuan and therefore never met Ma Chao.

The letter to Zhuge Liang concerning Ma Chao is really shows nothing about whether Guan Yu was arrogant or jealous. Considering that he was Liu Bei's longtime friend, it would not be wrong for him to ask about the abilities of the newcomer. The praise for Guan Yu was nothing uncommon that others hadn't received before.
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Unread postby Mei Zhen » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:06 am

Glossing over the text provided, it seems like Guan Yu is tapping his buddy Liu Bei on the shoulder and saying, "are you sure about the new guy, man?" Not an uncommon thing in the day, especially when your name is so famous, and people around you aren't sure you're up to the task. I mean, according to the novel guys like Zhang Lu are pissing their pants at the mere mention of Ma Chao, and himself being a revered general, it wouldn't be strange for Guan Yu to question his abilities. Of course, enter Zhuge Liang, who assures Guan Yu that Ma Chao is no match for him, having not bested Zhang Fei. Very good mediation on his part.

However, that being said it would not be out of the realm of possibility in SGYY that Guan Yu felt a bit encroached upon seeing Liu Bei so close to this weird new guy, who quickly takes an important post in the Shu military. Here he is, calling Liu Bei by his name and by all accounts acting rude and doing questionable things which might get a lesser general demoted, but he's still on his lofty perch. Having never met, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Guan Yu to have his doubts.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:11 am

Big Blu wrote:If I remember correctly he's one of the key reasons Shu was formed to begin with, he was loyal, proud, & I'd say that he got pretty far, lets see, he killed Pang De, flooded Cao Ren's castle & tied his best to fight off both Wu & Wei forces with no reinforcements, then being loyal to Liu Bei chose death instead of servise to Sun Quan. Confusious was wrong about quuite a few things you know. I mean to what degree of denial will you sink to prove to yourself that Guan Yu was useless, if he was that useless, why was Cao Cao so eager to use him, & why was Sun Quan so eager to kill him? Guan Yu was a GREAT general, theres no denying that,he was totally arrogant, but he was one of the best of the time.


If he was a great general why did he lose at Xiapi, Xunkou, Hanjin, Fan Cheng, Xiang Yang, Yan Cheng, Siji, and Mei Cheng? He was terrible in the field! This is all I'm going to say about his military record in this thread so that we can devote it to his jealousy.

Mei ZHen: I don't think he would ask for an execution if he was just "checking" if the guy was good. :?
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Unread postby Mei Zhen » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:04 pm

Sorry, where is the execution text? I want to read over the incident myself (English or Chinese, either is fine) if you could furnish a link or quote - thanks.
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My friend you must be careful
They've a million ways to kill you

In this dangerous world
There’s an art to growing old
Taking chances
Magic happens"
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:09 pm

The quote had been posted on page 1 of this thread.
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Unread postby Mei Zhen » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:56 pm

Ah I see it now - missed it the first time around. In that case it is much harder to make a case for the guy:).
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My friend you must be careful
They've a million ways to kill you

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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:03 pm

Another quote from SGZ showing Chao's anxiety,
又 謂 超 曰 : 「 卿 為 其 外, 我 為 其 內 , 天 下 不 足 定 也 。 」 超 羈 旅 歸 國 , 常 懷 危 懼, 聞 羕 言 大 驚 , 默 然 不 答 。

羕(Yang?) said to Chao: "If you work on the outside and I work from the inside, it is not hard to unify China." In fact Chao was always worried and scared after he led his troop to comply with Bei. Thereafter he was shocked by hearing such saying, Chao kept silence and didn't reply.

It is feasible that Chao became wary after he did some mistakes. I assume Chao was not brilliant in politics; since the credit of ChengDu's surrender was given to him, he might be a little proud of that and said/(acted) something not "polite/humble enough." And those saying or behaviours would be a tool for his political enemies to make use of.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:23 am

I don't think it is jealousy at all.I think it is just Guan Yu's pride.Ma Chao had a fierce reputation and Guan Yu couldn't stand someone in the Shu ranks who could outclass him.So he asks.Of course Zhuge,genius that he is,knows just what buttons to push.

On the second,Guan only requested his execution because of how outraged he and Zhang Fei were at Ma Chao's impudence.Really,Chao has no right to call Liu Bei by his style name at all.That sort of thing might go for someone with long history like Zhao Yun but Ma Chao hasn't even been there long.It'd be like Lu Xun starting off with Quan calling him "Zhongmou this" and "Zhongmou that".
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Unread postby Big Blu » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:25 am

You know Lu Kuang, you totally avoided the fact that Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Sun Quan & many other worlords were scared to death of him & igf he sucked in the feild so bad what happened to Pang De, Yan Liang, Wen Chou & others that he obliterated. I don't think they evaporated. :P

Any how, Chao coulen't have been all that politically intelligent, he diden't have alot of influence really, even though he was one of Shu's best, all time. Guan Yu, well, whether arrogant or not he's a legend, & he had to have done or said something to get to that level. I don't see Xiahou Yuan's likeness at the bottum of the page when I log on, I don't see Sun Quan, or even Zhang Fei, on the cover of a book. >> as I said it's denial to not admit that Guan Yu was a great general. If you still don't believe me I suggest you study a bit more & discard any biases you might have.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:21 am

I don't think it is jealousy at all.I think it is just Guan Yu's pride.Ma Chao had a fierce reputation and Guan Yu couldn't stand someone in the Shu ranks who could outclass him.So he asks.Of course Zhuge,genius that he is,knows just what buttons to push.


How do you explain his reaction to Zhuge Liang coming on the scene?

"[Liu Bei] formed a clsoe relationship with [Zhuge] Liang. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were not content.

It looks like both of them were jealous here.

Big Blu wrote:You know Lu Kuang, you totally avoided the fact that Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Sun Quan & many other worlords were scared to death of him & igf he sucked in the feild so bad what happened to Pang De, Yan Liang, Wen Chou & others that he obliterated. I don't think they evaporated. :P


He didn't beat Wen Chou and the other two were not good generals. Not to mention all the other circumstances with Pang De and the fact that he should no ability as a field marshall or a general in either encounter. In all those encounters I mentioned he lost. When ever he tried to be a general he lost. When ever he was given a piece of land to defend, of utmost importance he lost it without a fight.

Any how, Chao coulen't have been all that politically intelligent, he diden't have alot of influence really, even though he was one of Shu's best, all time. Guan Yu, well, whether arrogant or not he's a legend, & he had to have done or said something to get to that level. I don't see Xiahou Yuan's likeness at the bottum of the page when I log on, I don't see Sun Quan, or even Zhang Fei, on the cover of a book. >> as I said it's denial to not admit that Guan Yu was a great general. If you still don't believe me I suggest you study a bit more & discard any biases you might have.


Zhang Kai of the Wu Dynasty is whorhipped as a King and there are places in China that have huge celebrations for him. What did he do? Nothing. Same deal with Guan Yu. (Well I should be fair, ZHang Kai did do a little bit more than Guan Yu).
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