Zhuge Liang being tricked

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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:35 pm

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:Well, actually I didn't call Zhuge a jerk because of shallowness.
In fact I think wasn't shallow at all, and I call him jerk exactly due to his "political intelligence." He can even apply his political sense in marriage! What else could I say?

But what if he really had a thing for blondes?
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:37 pm

But what if he really had a thing for blondes?

Woa! :lol:
Then I wish them a merry marriage!
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:52 pm

I don't know. This is kinda pointless. I mean, Zhuge could just marry an ugly girl who is smart and a dumb girl who is good looking. I really fail to see anything bad about this or anyone being tricked.

Also, in Dyanst Warriors, Yue Ying is a warrior and she always talks about how she is a warrior before a women and stuff. Kinda contradicts the whole strategist thing.

Also, she invented Juggernauts. They breathe fire, in DW. Is that really true, did she really invent something like that, or did they even exist?
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Unread postby Equinox » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:24 pm

I knew the DW would creep into this thread at some point! I think the juggernauts are based on two things: Zhuge Liang's mobile wooden oxen which transported goods, and the animal-shaped vehicles he employed in the Southern Campaign to chase away the magically summoned real animals (in the novel). There is mention in chapter 90 of SGYY of these, probably what Koei was representing with the juggernauts (they do have a tiger head).
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:26 pm

I don't know. This is kinda pointless.

Lady Wu was just joking.
Personal preference varys from person to person, who knows what Zhuge favoured.

Also, she invented Juggernauts. They breathe fire, in DW. Is that really true, did she really invent something like that, or did they even exist?

I'm not sure, but there are records that Zhuge was good at invention, and many historians believe that his wife had helped him a lot.
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Unread postby Uiler » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:02 am

As a girl, I don't see how Zhuge Liang is being tricked or being a jerk. In fact the fact he is willing to marry a girl because he appreciates her mind even if she is not "beautiful" (in fact I'm not sure if it states whether she is actually ugly or not. All it says is that her hair is not quite black and her skin is darker than normal, not that her face is like a pig. That's just Chinese prejudices. Besides her colouring she could be really pretty or even normal looking) raises him in my eyes. Especially since even in today's Western world I've had my friends in high school tell me that some boys *did* like me but were "scared off" by my intelligence. Thanks.

I doubt Zhuge Liang married her because he loved her because most marriages back then weren't like that. A "happy" marriage was one where the two people were "compatible" or comfortable with each other so a close affection develops after many years and they work well together. And of course family circumstances and status were also important.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:10 am

"Zhuge is a real jerk" is a saying for entertainment only. :wink:

But I really doubt his motive. Zhuge hadn't contacted with Ms Wang before they married. How could he possibly know they were "compatible" or not? Still he immediately agreed the marriage suggested by Wang, why?
Don't ignore the fact that Zhuge had nothing when he was in Xiang Yang, it was possible that he aimed on Wang's property and fame.
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Unread postby Uiler » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:26 am

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:"Zhuge is a real jerk" is a saying for entertainment only. :wink:

But I really doubt his motive. Zhuge hadn't contacted with Ms Wang before they married. How could he possibly know they were "compatible" or not? Still he immediately agreed the marriage suggested by Wang, why?
Don't ignore the fact that Zhuge had nothing when he was in Xiang Yang, it was possible that he aimed on Wang's property and fame.


The story is rather anecdotal and is seemingly written by someone who doesn't like Zhuge Liang. I wouldn't take it as god's truth. Even if the events did happen like it says, it clearly puts a slant to it that is anti-Zhuge Liang. It is easy to put a slant on historical facts to suit your own purpose (as Romance clearly does) For example it could have left out all the time Zhuge Liang spent inquiring about the character of the prospective girl.

I still don't see how this proves Zhuge Liang is a jerk or was tricked. Even if the marriage was political, what about Sun Ce's marriage to the daughters of one of the scions of the south? Liu Bei's marriage to Lady Sun? Politically motivated marriages were a dime a dozen back then. As for him being tricked, he was clearly told before the marriage the girl was not a beauty so he went in with his eyes wide open. And he seemed to be fairly happy with his wife afterwards and they seemed to get along well as people suggested they even worked together on inventions. So how was he tricked? He got an alliance which may have raised his status and a wife who he got along well with. It may not have been a rip roaring romance, but as my grandmother said, back in her day (with arranged marriages, no divorce, concubines etc.), a good husband was one who "didn't beat you".
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:17 am

Uiler wrote:
what about Sun Ce's marriage to the daughters of one of the scions of the south? Liu Bei's marriage to Lady Sun?

That's why I said most of the marriages were tied to politics that time.
(But in fact, Sun Ce's marriage had nothing to do with politics, because the father of Ce's wife was only a small- potatoes compared to Yuan Shu or Lu Bu. Back to the time of Ce's marriage, he had already been a great warlord, only warlords like Shu or Cao could compete with him.)
Now look at Zhuge's case, he wasn't as great as Sun Ce at that time, his motive was even not as pure as him.

Uiler wrote:
He got an alliance which may have raised his status and a wife who he got along well with. It may not have been a rip roaring romance, but as my grandmother said, back in her day (with arranged marriages, no divorce, concubines etc.), a good husband was one who "didn't beat you".

Never believe a politician. You can tell Zhuge was after Wang's fame and ability. And I think "arranged marriages" seldom ended up on divorce back to 3k era. But the truth is, Zhuge had never been a good husband.
I remember there are records saying Zhuge was always not home, leading his wife to do the work of raising the children by herself. Zhuge didn't left much money to his wife after death also, so I wouldn't see him as a good husband. Some records even say Zhuge had a mistress (it is legitimate back then, but I doubt its accuracy on saying so).
Last edited by LING_TONG ^0^ on Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:41 am

Though he might not have been a good husband by today's standards (not making enough money, not staying home enough, etc), he was comparatively good as a husband back then.

At least he didn't kill and cook her, like Liu An did. :lol:

Seriouly, though, he worked hard and made sure that the family was not shamed, and seemed to care for his kid as much as he could given his other pre-occupations. He wrote to Zhuge Jin, “瞻今已八岁,聪慧可爱,嫌其早成,恐不为重器耳。” (Zhan is 8 years old this year, and is smart and cute (^_^!). However, I'm afraid that he's growing up too quickly and cannot develop into a serious minister.)

He must have been hanging out with Zhuge Zhan in order to make that kind of statement.

Zhuge Liang didn't leave much money behind, but they did get by comfortably. He had 800 mulberry trees left behind in Chengdu, which could support quite a bit of a silk production. Ms. Huang was probably quite proud of Ah-Liang, actually.

Uiler wrote:Especially since even in today's Western world I've had my friends in high school tell me that some boys *did* like me but were "scared off" by my intelligence. Thanks.

Jerks.

And I'd say that ZGL was a jerk if he had rejected Ms. Huang on the basis of her "beauty", too.
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