Zhuge Liang being tricked

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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:02 am

Lady Wu wrote:
Though he might not have been a good husband by today's standards (not making enough money, not staying home enough, etc), he was comparatively good as a husband back then.

He sure was "comparatively good" if compared to Liu Au. :wink:
But I think he was then "comparatively bad" if compared to many others.
Even the notorious Pan Zhang did a better job than Zhuge as a husband.
Pan's bio:
Pan Zhang was a spendthrift by nature, and became worse in his old age, when he began to use clothing and vessels that mimicked his liege’s own.

Well, he had got a fashion sense! :lol:
I would be proud if I were his wife.

After Pan's death,
Pan Zhang’s wife remained in Jianye, where Sun Quan granted her land and houses as well as fifty households as serfs

The original text states "妻 居 建 業 , 賜 田 宅 , 復 客 五 十 家 。"
The fifty households were already Zhangs, Quan just gave it back to Zhang's wife after Zhang's death.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:46 am

I'd say Kongming was fairly good husband by the standards back then, theres no record of him using concubines :D

Maybe the sources about Zhuge Liangs being ugly were inventions of the historian, considering that Zhuge Liang did have an image of a hard-working han minister, if he was married to a wife and she was a real beauty then it would go against Liang as a scholarly sage (and more along the lines of Liang the horny scholarly :lol:)
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Unread postby Mei Zhen » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:59 am

I think Lady Wu's last post on the topic mirrors my opinion of the subject: had I been a woman in the 3K era, the last thing I would do when I saw my husband coming home on an infrequent visit would be to complain about how he doesn't take care of me -

"Well I'm sorry honey, but I only have to bear the entire weight of the kingdom of Shu on my shoulders! First Wu Zhang, and now this?!"

As for Pan Zhang, does the citation you made tell you about his treatment of his wives, Ling_Tong^0^? I'm just curious because I don't have the complete text in front of me, but it just seems like he spent a bunch on his own clothing - very metrosexual :).

Also, remember the value of modesty in advertising your own children in Chinese culture. My parents, for example, said that I was an average student even though I was at the top of my class in grade school. It would not be unusual for Huang Chengyuan to make his daughter out to be a monstrously ugly girl when she was just slightly below average in terms of looks, or even if there was nothing wrong about her (since that way, Zhuge Liang would know what to expect, or just be pleasantly surprised).
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:08 am

The citation didn't say directly how Pan Zhang treated his wife, but I can tell their life was very luxury. That's how Pan lived, they had fifty households as servant.
Even Pan was an extreme materialist, he had no records of using concubines also. While actually there are records saying Zhuge Liang did. (I can't remember where I read them but I doubt the sources, too. But the main point is, there are tons of people who have no records of using concubines.)

And in my eye, the chinese culture suggests a girl to marry someone rich.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:21 am

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:The citation didn't say directly how Pan Zhang treated his wife, but I can tell their life was very luxury. That's how Pan lived, they had fifty households as servant.

But Pan Zhang having luxury in the house doesn't necessarily mean that he treated his wife well--he could have beaten her, for all we know. Pan Zhang wasn't the most mellow guy around.

And in my eye, the chinese culture suggests a girl to marry someone rich.

True, but how do you know that Pan Zhang was rich when he got married? He was so poor earlier on that he had to buy wine on credit (since he didn't have hard cash). And how does that connect to the point that ZGL was getting hoodwinked?

You and I obviously look for very different traits in a husband. :lol: But the fact remains that being married to a rich husband back then wasn't everything-- if he's a jerk in politics, he could get you killed as well (check out all the "X was killed and his family exterminated" phrases). On the other hand, there are good examples of women marrying less-than-promising husbands and end up doing well.

Case in point: Lady Wu ^_^

"Originally a native of Wu, she moved to Qiangtang .She lost her parents very early and lived with her younger brother [Wu] Jing. Sun Jian heard of her talent and beauty and wanted to marry her. Her relatives in the Wu family, detesting Jian's frivolity and craftiness, were going to resist him."
-- Crowell and Cutter's translation of Lady Wu's SGZ bio, Empresses and Consorts

Sun Jiang was a good-for-nothin, but Lady Wu insisted on marrying him. Thus the kingdom of Wu was born. 8-)
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Unread postby Uiler » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:32 am

Mei Zhen wrote:I think Lady Wu's last post on the topic mirrors my opinion of the subject: had I been a woman in the 3K era, the last thing I would do when I saw my husband coming home on an infrequent visit would be to complain about how he doesn't take care of me -

"Well I'm sorry honey, but I only have to bear the entire weight of the kingdom of Shu on my shoulders! First Wu Zhang, and now this?!"


I think that Sun Ce and Zhou Yu made a joke once about how their wives (they married sisters) should be happy even though they never saw their husbands because they married such fine men (or words to that effect). And don't forget people like Sun Quan and Cao Cao who had large harems full of concubines. Even Liu Bei had wives and concubines, so I think Mrs Zhuge might not have too much to complain about really in terms of getting attention (comparitively speaking to the wives of other famous men of the time).
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:23 am

yea, I remember Sun Ce and Zhou Yu also had no concubine and Jian's pure motive.

Lady Wu wrote:
But Pan Zhang having luxury in the house doesn't necessarily mean that he treated his wife well--he could have beaten her, for all we know. Pan Zhang wasn't the most mellow guy around.


I believed that Zhang didn't beat up his wife. (Wu Shu has already said a lot of his bad things, why not something about his wife if that happened?) Vice versa, there is no record saying that Zhuge didn't beat up his wife. So if we assume zhang did it alone without evidence, it will be unfair.
I assume zhang got married after HeiFei, like Ling Tong. The time suited if we do calculation. He died at Kai Wo 3rd year while his son was young.

Also, "luxury in the house" is very good indeed when compared to Zhuge. Zhuge was seldom at home, and his house wasn't luxury (he was a PM, just look at other PMs' house). Pan was a general only, if Zhuge must be that loyal to his ambition but not his wife, why should I see him as a "good husband" when compared to others?

Lady Wu wrote:
You and I obviously look for very different traits in a husband. But the fact remains that being married to a rich husband back then wasn't everything-- if he's a jerk in politics, he could get you killed as well

Zhuge wasn't a good choice in my eye, I'll choose Lu Bu instead. Although he is really dumb in politics, and may lead to my death at the end, I would like to venture with him. Everyone will die eventually, just let it be romantic enough for me to recall before I die.

P.S: if you see the song the Xiang Yang resident made for Zhuge, you will consider Zhuge a victim. That is the view of local folks of that time (not mine).
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Re: Zhuge Liang being tricked

Unread postby Jiangji » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:09 am

Somehow I feel Huang Sing Yi was a jerk.
BUT Kong Ming was a Real jerk.
And I wonder, will they play that song in Kong Ming's wedding?


With Zhuge Liang intelligence, it is impossible for him to be tricked by Huang Sing Yi . Also, this is what most people usually do long ago and it is considered normal.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:44 am

if you see the song the Xiang Yang resident made for Zhuge, you will consider Zhuge a victim. That is the view of local folks of that time (not mine).

above is what most people reacted (by record) and it's considered a joke.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:08 am

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:lAlso, "luxury in the house" is very good indeed when compared to Zhuge. Zhuge was seldom at home, and his house wasn't luxury (he was a PM, just look at other PMs' house). Pan was a general only, if Zhuge must be that loyal to his ambition but not his wife, why should I see him as a "good husband" when compared to others?

Then you should consider Bu Zhi 步騭 the ultimate husband:

Bu Zhi's bio, my translation wrote:His attire and household decorations were those of a scholar’s. However, in his inner halls, his wives and concubines were dressed lavishly, and he was ridiculed quite a bit for that.


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