Wu: Killed by disease.

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Wu: Killed by disease.

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:24 pm

As most of us know, there was an epdimic during Hefei that was largly resposible for Sun Quan's retreat. However, after looking at things a bit more carefully, this epdimic was responsible for much more. First, let's look at the generals present:

We have Sun Quan, the commander, and 4 subordinates; Gan Ning, Lu Meng, Ling Tong and Jiang Qin. 3 years after Hefei, 3 of these guys are dead by illness, Lu Meng, Jiang Qin and Gan Ning. Kind strange, huh. It seems that they could very well have been sick for some time, or the desiese did not stop at Hefei, and continued to spread into Wu over then next few years.

As we see, Lu Su also died of illness shortly after Hefei. The diesease may also have spread into the Wu courts. Another pair who died around the time of Hefei are Cheng Pu and Huang Gai. This can indicate that the illness was around before and after Hefei.
The first three to die, Lu Su, Cheng Pu and Huang Gai were stationed near the Jingzhou front. The next three were also stationed there before they died. So basicly, it seems that Wu could have been infected aroudn 215 or so with desiese from Jingzhou, this was carried to Hefei and became a massive problem, and later, when the surviving generals return to Jingzhou, they die. My guess is that it happened that way.

So basicly, not only did Cao Cao suffer illness at Jingzhou, but Wu was heavily affected as well and this may have very well crippled offensive power in Wu.

Mod Edit (SH) Edited title to correct spelling.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Wizardman » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:33 pm

Hmm.. It is possible. The fact that all these Wu strategists and fighters were slain by disease in such a short period of time is scary in a sense. I find it doubtful that someone could carry a disease this long and die from it after a few years. Then again, I'm not a medical expert, so I'd have to check to see if there's such a disease out there.
Was there an apparent plague in Jing? Apparently, yes. It's now it stayed there for so long that confuses me.
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Unread postby Elven Fury » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:35 pm

This is an interesting thought PM but i wonder if such a disease could have either such a long incubation period before waking up and making you sick or such a long illness that ensues from it... But this is a very interesting thought... If only there ws some kind of medical record or something for the time to see if there were any connections to the illnesses... This would definatly be something facinating to look into...
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Unread postby Uiler » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:53 pm

One disease that killed many people in old times, including China and Japan was TB. I heard rumours that Zhuge Liang died of TB? I know lots of Japanese leaders during the civil war that led to the Meiji Revolution died of TB (eg. Okita Souji one of the best fighters of the era and hugely romanticised in Japanese popular imagery - he had the disease for a long time. He tried to hide it but started coughing blood during the Ikedaya Inn fighting. Then he seemed to recover but in later hard fighting it recurred and he eventually died in his early 20s. The guy on the Ishinshishi side who formed the first Japanese modern army also had TB but continued on in the fighting until he died coughing blood in his early 30s I think). I understand that TB (or consumption as it used to be known) was a recurring disease. You get it and recover. But it remains dormant in your body as hard cysts. During times of great stress when your immune system is low, it re-erupts. It can be a disease that slowly kills people, people seem to get better and then suddenly relapse during times of stress and eventually die. And of course it is very infectious spread by air. TB is a pain to kill completely, even with modern medicine. I have no idea if this was the disease that seem to infect people near Jingzhou but yes, you can get diseases with long incubation periods (well in the case of TB you seem to recover from it before having a sudden relapse during times of stress) and which is very infectious.
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Unread postby Elven Fury » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:58 pm

Uiler wrote:One disease that killed many people in old times, including China and Japan was TB. I heard rumours that Zhuge Liang died of TB? I know lots of Japanese leaders during the civil war that led to the Meiji Revolution died of TB. I understand that TB (or consumption as it used to be known) was a recurring disease. You get it and recover. But it remains dormant in your body as hard cysts. During times of great stress when your immune system is low, it re-erupts. It can be a disease that slowly kills people, people seem to get better and then suddenly relapse during times of stress and eventually die. And of course it is very infectious spread by air. TB is a pain to kill completely, even with modern medicine. I have no idea if this was the disease that seem to infect people near Jingzhou but yes, you can get diseases with long incubation periods (well in the case of TB you seem to recover from it before having a sudden relapse during times of stress) and which is very infectious.


This could explain quite a bit... now if it is TB then it may not be the TB we know today for all bacteria and viruses mutate over time so they become immune to medicines and stuff... but this definatly may explain quite a bit...
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Unread postby Shortyafter » Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:09 pm

I bet it was SARS! :lol:

Well anyways, this is an interesting theory, but I can't really say if it could happen or not. I'm leaning towards this being true, but I'm not 100% sure.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:36 pm

I don't think these guys had it for 3 years, I just think that this illness was around and deadly for about 11 years in the Jing/Yang border around Lu Kou and it just people may escape it but if they return, they will get it again and die. So basicly, Lu Meng could have been completly healthy the whole time, just when he went to Lu Kou a second time, he got it and died just like the others who went there, like Lu Su and Jiang Qin.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:03 pm

This wasn't exactly the most sterile place in the world.The Chinese weren't hygiene Nazis like the Japanese became.

Disease was everywhere.Tons of people died from disease.Or as someone on Frontier once called it "generic fatal illness".Just look at the number of people who disease took and you'll find it's a tremendous number.Few actually died from old age or in battle.
If you think Wu was the only kingdom affected by illness in its officer ranks,you've got another thing coming.
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Unread postby Elven Fury » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:49 pm

Is there such a list that tells who died how?
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:40 pm

I think that Wu did suffer the most from disease or atleast their officers were hurt much more. Wu lost many good officers to illness at younger ages than say Shu who's tigers all had full lives (with the exception of perhaps Ma Chao). Wei did not have all that many young deaths from illness. But Wu lost many of it's great commanders and field marshalls at young ages due to disease and they could have been much much more effective for Wu had they lived even just 10 years longer each.
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