Gang Ning was defeated by Liu Zhang

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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:04 am

Or maybe he had 800 followers as a bandit. He wasn't a civil officer, he was a pirate leader. What would a pirate be doing in the mountains? It makes no sense, they should call him "Bandit" Gan Ning, not pirate.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:07 am

Bu Zhi wrote:
This is all I could find that actually looks closly related to your qoute.

Umm... I see.
Well, I didn't quote from SGZ, I quoted from other sources (in fact I stated it in earlier post) I got the information from "Records of the Heros," so that maybe why you couldn't find the related info if you only looked into SGZ.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:09 am

Records of Heroes... Hmm..

Can that be a Han record, not TK?
If it is, then I must look into this.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:12 am

Or maybe he had 800 followers as a bandit. He wasn't a civil officer, he was a pirate leader. What would a pirate be doing in the mountains? It makes no sense, they should call him "Bandit" Gan Ning, not pirate.

yea, you are right on saying he was a pirate. But due to records, he was also an legitimate officer.
The fact is we have to collect tiny pieces of history to draw the big picture.
So I Assume that Ning did some pirate act while he was in fact an officer at the same time.
If you think quicker, you would see the similaries of Ning and Tao's officer who killed Cao's father for money. (I'm sorry that I don't know how to spell Tao's officer's name)
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:18 am

You mean Zhang Kai?
Gan Ning was not greedy and despised wealth according to SGZ. He doesn't seem like the type to kill someone for money, more like killing someone for plunders of goods and raids on areas.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:39 am

You mean Zhang Kai?
Gan Ning was not greedy and despised wealth according to SGZ. He doesn't seem like the type to kill someone for money, more like killing someone for plunders of goods and raids on areas.

I have to state that records always save face for who they writes.
First, please read though what I'm going to say (I dont want to cause confusion).
If Ning wasn't greedy (the word barbaric should be used instead), why was he a pirate?
(But I am not throwing away the SGZ by saying it saves face, so plz read on.)
Thus, I assume Ning was barbaric (I wouldn't say he's Greedy) BEFORE he self- educated (he spent all day studying when he had nothing to do at Jing). After reading a ton of books, Ning changed, he found knowledge more valuable than paper claim (money), he learned also he was wrong being a pirate. So he was different after he got to Wu. But you can still see some of his barbaric nature (which Ning had tried his best to oppress), like killing his servant / cook (for details, check bios of Ning and Lu Meng).
My assumption is also supported by this quote:
人 與 相 逢, 及 屬 城 長 吏 , 接 待 隆 厚 者 乃 與 交 歡 ; 不 爾 , 即 放 所 將奪 其 資 貨 , 於 長 吏 界 中 有 所 賊 害 , 作 其 發 負 , 至 二 十 餘年 。 止 不 攻 劫 , 頗 讀 諸 子 , 乃 往 依 劉 表 , 因 居 南 陽 , 不見 進 用 , 後 轉 托 黃 祖 , 祖 又 以 凡 人 畜 之 。

It says "If people or the officer of the same city welcome Ning and treat him politely, Ning will befriend them; if not, Ning will burglar them, he has caused some harms on the officer- yield already, he has insisted his behavior like this for twenty years. :twisted:(it sounds like a warning to the other officers)
So what after that 20 years?
Ning stopped his burglar and found a place to study, he engaged in books of different knowledge, thereafter, he applied for a position under Liu Biao, but taking account that Ning lived in Nan Yang (well... why?), Biao refused Ning, and later Ning was transfered to Huang, Huang treat Ning as a nomal person.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:07 am

I agree with you 100%, Ling Tong, on the above comment. It is true about Gan Ning indeed.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:31 am

The quote reveals that his rebellion was unsuccesful, but never mentions his force being defeated or more specifically his own force being defeated. Usually when something is presented as "and they could no acheive victory" it's a bio covering up for their losses. However this is not a Wu history and if anything would have bias very far away from Wu. Therefore it may just imply a matter of anything. Also we don't know who was commanding the forces and what Gan Ning's role was. Now there isn't enough information to draw a conclusion that Liu Zhang defeated him in battle but we can conclude the rebellion was unsuccesful. Furthermore, his knowledge of Yizhou would make Zhou Yu's plan to attack Yizhou much more likely to succed.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:43 am

I agree, because if I remeber correctly, Gan Ning and Zhou Yu where the ones who thought up of attacking Yizhou. Good idea. :wink:
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:49 am

I had wondered about that quote for a long time. It is found in Pei's annotation to Liu Yan's SGZ biography, for those interested. The book he quoted it from, Yingxiong Ji (英雄记), was a collection of stories about the "heroes" of the realm of the late Han/Wei times compiled by Wang Can 王粲 of Wei.

I find it really hard to reconcile that passage with everything in the Wu records. The biographies in the Wu portion wasn't that nice about Gan Ning either--they didn't hide the fact that he was a bandit in his youth, and said explicitly that he was "rough and fond of killing" (Lu Meng's bio).

Liu Yan wasn't that incompetent. He would allow a subordinate to gather wreckless fellows and rob people all around town, in broad daylight. You can't be an adventurer (游侠) and an officer at the same time. Therefore, even if Gan Ning had worked for Liu Yan, he must have found employment with Liu Yan *after* he settled down and studied. Zhang Kai was different in that it was a one-time thing; Gan Ning was doing that for a long time. But still. It's pretty weird.

There are some other points that are weird about this story, but I can't seem to think of any right now--it's Friday night after all and I had too much to drink. I would tend to go with PMBZ's hypothesis that Gan Ning =/= Gan Ning, though. Perhaps they were two people with the same name; perhaps Wang Can was confused. The Wei scholars are known to have some crazy stories about Yizhou, such as the story in Wei Lue (魏略) about how Liu Shan was separated from his daddy in Xuzhou, kidnapped by these people who sold him off as a servant in Yizhou, and was reunited w/ Liu Bei when Liu Bei entered Yizhou and hired the guy who bought Liu Shan. :roll:

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