Should Guan Yu have been entrusted with Jing? (SGYY or SGZ)

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Beardy with Jing a good idea?

Yes, he guarded it well and did a good job!
7
18%
No, another general should have undertaken the task.
18
45%
It doesn't matter. Wu would have taken Jing anyway.
11
28%
Other (Please specify)
4
10%
 
Total votes : 40

Should Guan Yu have been entrusted with Jing? (SGYY or SGZ)

Unread postby Sima Hui » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:24 pm

Hrm, this has been on my mind for some time.

We all know the story of Guan Yu in Jing. We also know that he was given command of the province. But was it right to entrust it to someone as arrogant as him?

Personally I think that Zhao Yun would have been a better candidate because he was never arrogant (as far as we know) and he probably would have followed Wang Fu's suggestion to replace Pan Jun, Mi Fang and Fu Shiren. :wink:
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:43 pm

It seems I gave the first vote.
I chose "other," for I think Jing as a political liability that Liu owed Sun; thus Liu should had yielded Jing to Sun and requested his help to accomplish the aim of "reconstruct the Han" first (Guan was on his way attacking Wei).
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:48 pm

I voted for the third one.

Guan Yu was not a bad choice. Mi Fang followed Liu Bei for years and it's difficult to foresee this. I'm sure anyone else would have placed him in charge as well. I also don't think that anyone else could have defeated Yue Jin in 213 and Yu Jin in 219. Zhao Yun was not arrogant but was unexperienced as a leader compared to Guan Yu, and not as experienced or feared.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:24 pm

In hindsight another choice would obviously have been better.I certainly wish Kongming could have remained and switched with Pang Tong when it was time for Zhuge to be PM.But Pang Tong died and reinforcements had to be sent immediately from Jing.So who to leave in charge?

Zhuge was needed and Guan Yu was next highest ranking,not to mention the number one general in Bei's army.He was a good choice.
There really was no way to prevent what happened unless Shu entirely abandoned the idea of Wu as an ally.Wu had dishonourable intentions all along so unless Shu fortifies that border nothing could be done.

Guan Yu,like many others,was done in by that weasel Sun Quan.
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Unread postby Famed Hero » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:28 pm

Although I'm not the biggest Guan Yu fan I still respect him as a warrior and will say that he is probably the only General within Liu Bei's ranks who could have held Jing as long as he did. As far as your poll choices I'd choose both one and three if I could.

The simple fact is that Guan Yu did a tremendous job defending Jing, if only through intimidation by his reputation at the very least. It is very easy to see that with his limited forces and resources that Jing would have feel to Wu soon enough. Lu Meng's plan to take Jing was a beauty and executed damn near perfectly, it was obvious that Cao Cao held back in taking Jing for the most part due to his being in the know of Guan Yu's skills as a battlefield commander. Both those being said when Cao Cao commited to Jing in 218 Sun Quan made use of Lu Meng's plan and the opportunity that Guan Yu had pretty much lended him as Guan Yu raided one of Wu's grain supply holds.

Anyway, I don't think any other General under Liu Bei had the capacity to do what Guan Yu did with what little he had. Some may say Zhuge although you also have to consider if it would have been a greater benefit to have him in Jing or elsewhere, or even per se if Zhuge and Guan would have changed places... would it have been better?
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:02 pm

Guan Yu was so arrogant (while he wasn't that great )
Even Wu was helping him (providing food supply advantages to support his campaign against Wei), he seemed to expect Wu officers to bow him.
However, he was quite afraid of Gang Ning and wary of Lu Su and Lu Meng. But once Lu Meng was sick (which is a ploy) and left his position, Guan immediately showed his arrogance to Meng's successor, Lu Xun. You can tell Guan's fatal failure at this point.
In my eye, the one who broke the ally wasn't Lu Meng nor Sun Quan, but Guan Yu himself (who needed an ally most at that time). Sun might thought: "If Guan is nicer, I'll be franker."
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:29 pm

Who cares if Sun Quan had "evil" desires or whatever. Obviously he wanted Jing because it was his to start with. Anyway, Liu Bei is an equally treacherous "weasal" for the whole Betraying Liu Zhang, Lu Bu, Cao Cao, planning to betray Liu Biao, leave Gongsun Zan in his time of need.


Anyway, Zhuge Liang didn't need to be Prime Minister. Fa Zheng could have if he lived longer, Zhuge Liang was not needed by Liu Bei in Yizhou, as Fa Zheng can easily substitute, as we can see. But it doesn't matter. Lu Meng and Lu Xun would have done away with any Shu general in Jingzhou.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:15 am

Who cares if Sun Quan had "evil" desires or whatever. Obviously he wanted Jing because it was his to start with. Anyway, Liu Bei is an equally treacherous "weasal" for the whole Betraying Liu Zhang, Lu Bu, Cao Cao, planning to betray Liu Biao, leave Gongsun Zan in his time of need.

I agree.
By the way I think Liu Bei was worse.
But the worst is Liu didn't make it a good end on Jing zhou issue.
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Unread postby Big Blu » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:58 am

Um, guys Gogsun Zan & Lu Bu are known for betraying other people. Actually I believe Lu Bu stabbed Liu Bei squarely in the back. Cao Cao had no intention of keeping Liu Bei alive, Liu Zhang was incompetent & Liu Bei was doubtful of betraying Liu Zhang & Liu Biao. I mean I think it was wrong of Liu Bei to betray Liu Zhang, & i think him not really planning on giveing back Jing (Which was not Sun Quans, he never lifted a finger for it, if I remember correctly Sun Jian died attacking it, & it was Sun Ce's next target) was wrong, but Sun Quan did everything he could to stab Liu Bei in the back. Theres always Lady Sun, & while Liu Bei attacked Cao Cao Sun Quan interviened, & then there was also the aftermath of that in Yi Ling. I mean Sun Quan was way more treacherous, even historically.

BTW Guan Yu was a great general, but he was to arrogant to protect Jing all by himself, he needed someone good with political affairs to guide him.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:05 am

Why GongSun was known for betraying other people? (for him killing Liu Yu?)
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