Shu-Han makes better heroic epic?

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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:24 pm

Zhuge Liang was exagerated just as much in the novel, and both him and Lu Xun played minor roles until 219 in actual history.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:25 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Zhuge Liang was exagerated just as much in the novel, and both him and Lu Xun played minor roles until 219 in actual history.

You didn't read my post. The novel is not the cause of Zhuge Liang's exaggerated excellence.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:27 pm

Guess which character's development into a "god" is more durable and interesting to the people whose culture is being represented?

Guess what kind of people is more useful as being a "model" in the eyes of dictators (emperors).
The last few thousand years, save for the nearest few hunderds, the China was under a "emperor / dictator - system," for this emperor would like to pick those "blind loyal" people to be a model to make more "loyalists" for their purpose.
Unfortunately :?: , Lu Xun had some conflicts with Sun Quan in his latter years, so he wasn't in the ideal model list of later emperors.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:31 pm

Emperor is not a dictator. The thing is, a Dynasty has a family succession, thus it is not dictation, as the family succeeds. And the emperor does not have complete control. Too many emperors show that they did not have full power at all.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:35 pm

In fact I'm not sure how to distinguish "emperor" and "dictator", but the key point is the emperors would like to use Zhuge Liang as a model to teach the others to obey (whether your boss is good or not :x ).
But in chinese culture, I feel the "emperor- system" is a "dictator- system"
The emperor in charge is said to be the son of the heaven, and all command should be given by him. He has the absolute power to anything.
Of course, modern "politic science" will do the work of all kind of technical distictions.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:45 pm

Emperor did not have complete control of China. If he did, why did people dethrone and place emperors as they wished. Power was contrevesial and divided in affiars. An emperor is also not a dictator because his family succeds his throne. Thus, Emperor =/= Dictator.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:01 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Emperor did not have complete control of China.

Urm, technically, they did.

If he did, why did people dethrone and place emperors as they wished.

Not true. There were far more failed attempts at coups than those that succeeded.

An emperor is a dictator because everyone had to do what he dictates.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:16 am

Well the heroes of Shu-Han reflect the 'values' that chinese culture deemed important and thus they got choosen to be the center of the novel. The important thing to remember is that RTK is not a black and white novel. Theres no absolute good and no absolute evils. Shu-Han must fitted the values of people more (keeping a dynasty alive is really important).

Zhuge Liang especially is a model of values of loyalty, honesty and the work ethic. Kongming's whole life in the novel he follows his principles and never goes against his moral code (you might argue the Liu Feng bit but his got a clean record apart from that).
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Unread postby One-Eye Wei » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:32 pm

I think it's irrelivent which faction is selected in RotK to be "heroic", but rather the storyteller and the audience that determines which version that will ultimately be vindicated.

I understand that there's a style of RotK where a virtuous Cao Cao contends with a inept Emperor, a traitorous Liu Bei, and a rebelious Sun family. Heck, I'm waiting to read about the valorous Sun family who paid with their bloodline, while attempting to pacify a corrupt empire and deal with the blasphemous Cao Cao and the treacherous Liu Bei! :P . Skewing events to support a certain potrayal is an activity that's been present since the dawn of recorded histories. As stated by others before me, the current socio-political climate in China heavily influenced which version is acceptable.

I caution against the "rags-to-riches" view of Shu's story. Remember, Liu Bei was a scion of thke Imperial family, and it's this single point that validates the "Shu-Han" terminology. I'm doubt that Bei's life was low-born as presented in the fiction.

Focusing on the fact that RotK is fiction after all, I'll bounce into pop-culture for my final analogies.

Do note that in 2004 (25+ years later!) we are waiting for the third(!) film about how Anakin Sywalker devolved into Darth Vader, a character who was evil incarnate in the 1970's/80's and has villian music, rivaled only by the Jaws theme, that still holds today as the universal 'bad guy' anthem.

And the film "Hero" is an excellent, semi-contextual example of how the value of a story depends on who's telling it, how it's being told, and whom it's being told to.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:And Sun Quan can easily be portrayed as the kindest, most virtous ruler, and they can easily make it that way.


Not without changing historical facts so much that the novel ceases to be historical.Quan could never be portrayed as loyalist without sweeping changes to all manner of events.He has numerous problems to overcome.
Like not being a grassroots hero.He got the silver spoon treatment.
Like never trying to save the Han.Like attacking the only person who openly pledged support to the Han,Liu Bei.

Zhuge Liang was exagerated just as much in the novel, and both him and Lu Xun played minor roles until 219 in actual history.


How ridiculous.I suppose Kongming's whole Longzhong p,an was nothing major.Just the plan that created the 3k is all.Nothing major.Not nearly as major as a similar failed plan by Zhou Yu which you find all important.
No bias there.
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