Yuan Shao against Yuan Shu & the alliances they made

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Which alliance do u support?

Support Yuan Shu alliance
Support Yuan Shao alliance
Total votes : 31

Yuan Shao against Yuan Shu & the alliances they made

Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:35 am

Most of us know that Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu had different political stands, but when did it start?
Despite of their personal conflict, they are half- brothers; when Yuan Shao became the head of the "Guan Du alliance" against Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shu was one of the attendants.
But soon after Luo Yang was brunt into ashes, the alliance was solved. Cao Cao and Yuan Shao formed an ally to attack Nan Yang, the capital of Yuan Shu. At last Yuan Shu lost his city and fled to the Lu Jiang.
After reforming a dominion, Yuan Shu had his influence on south China; But his early main strategic alliance was tied to the north. Since Yuan Shao had set a goal on unifying the north of China, he had to defeat the strongest opponent of the north, Gong-Sun Zan, whom Yuan Shu made ally with.
So 2 alliances emerged: the Yuan Shao side consisted Zhang Miao and Cao Cao from Chengliu, and GongSun Dao of Liao Du; while the Yuan Shu side was composed of the forces of GongSun Zan of You Zhou (Qing Zhou was under Zan's command also), Liu Bei from Ping Yuan, and Tao Qian from Xu Zhou.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:42 pm

hey, can anyone give some response or comment on the Yuan's family?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:45 pm

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:hey, can anyone give some response or comment on the Yuan's family?

This thread has only been around for a day! People here come on at all different times of the day, so someone is bound to respond sooner or later. So just be patient and let people read the topic and respond on their own time. Don't worry. ;)
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:02 pm

Well, I don't like Yuan Shu or Cao Cao much, so their wars I honestly don't care much about. But I do wish the war in the north had gone differently, for poor Gongsun Zan's sake. The outcome was really not his fault. So I suppose I back the anti-Yuan Shao bunch.
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Unread postby Rommel » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:20 pm

Well, I don't like Yuan Shu or Liu Bei much, so their wars dont care much about. Since Yuan Shu was a big traitor, anybody who sided with him could be considered as traitors too. So I suppose I back the anti-Yuan Shu bunch.
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Unread postby Xiahou Mengde88 » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:30 pm

Yuan Shu's glaring fault was that he was an A-hole.

Yuan Shao's glaring fault was his indecisiveness and lack of listening skills.

Yuan Shu, although an A-hole, might very well have been a better ruler than his half brother, seeing from things like how he was forced to build his army up twice and actually had huge numbers (although not as big as Shao's, probably due to his geographical position, in comparison to Shao, who was surrounded by easily conquerable forces), but then again, he picked Liu Bei, Tao Qian, and Gongsun Zan, of all forces to ally with, while Yuan Shao sided with Cao Cao, Zhang Miao, and that other guy (Shao probably could have decimated Y. Shu's army just with Cao Cao, even if Y. Shu had Liu Bei, Tao, and Zan all helping him.

And, another thing about the two Yuan's is that Shao was the older, I think, and therefore, would have been favored by their parents, and a majority of the fortune of their family probably would have been handed over to Shao.

And also, he did take a better route on which side to take when trying to decide between siding with Liu Biao and Yuan Shao when they were attacking Sun Jian after finding the Imperial Seal. (Sun Jian was the man, and in my view, if he had lived longer, he should have been the "Good guy" of the story, as I never saw Sun Jian do any thing that was even halfway sinister or evil, and he quelled some other rebellions after the Yello Turbans, and even earned the title, "The Tiger of Jiang Dong"...That's all there is to it.)

But, that's getting off the subject...He was also trusted enough by the Sun's for Sun Ce to flee to him when Sun Jian was killed. Although, Shu made a very evil mistake, when he decided to use Sun Ce's inherited Imperial Seal, and use it to proclaim himself Emperor; That lead to a mini-coalition, lead by Cao Cao, but Y. Shu didn't let pride get in the way of his livelyhood, and humbled himself, by trying to flee to Shao. But, he was stopped by Liu Bei, and forced back into his castle, and his castle actually lasted quite a while, as before Cao and Liu could get into the castle, he starved to death.

But, at least Yuan Shu listened to his advisors (although, he also followed bad advice, too.), and at least when he died, it was because he was surrounded, outnumbered, and therefore, afraid to try to break through the lines of his enemies, but when Yuan Shao fought Cao Cao at Guan Du, he had actually outnumbered Cao Cao at the start, but was outmaneuvered, and then, killed.

So, I would have to say that the Yuan's are just about tied, if Shu isn't a little more competent.

According to Yuan Shao's biography on kongming.net, he and Yuan Shu did not get along, ever since they were children, but I guess they respected each other enough for Yuan Shu to trust Shao to protect him, when he tried to run from Liu Bei and Cao Cao, (and hypothetically, vice-versa, probably.)...

But, that's not the point of the topic, either, so, I'll go ahead and answer. I would have to say that the Yuan's are just about tied, to me, as Shu's big fault was being an A-hole, but out of every one billion people in the world, there are probably around 650,000,000 A-holes :lol: , so it's not like he was the only one.
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Unread postby Waking Dragon » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:28 pm

I'd probably support Yuan Shao's alliance. I wouldn't mind being in one of the spectacularly large armies out of many that had served Yuan Shao :wink: ...PeAcE
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:39 pm

I support Yuan Shu's allience because Yuan Shao started it by attacked Nanyang and because Yuan Shu had Sun Ce. Also because if Yuan Shu won and declared himself emperor after conqeuring Wei territory, all his allies will betray him, Sun Ce would still be alive, and all the southerners will oppose him and if they win, Sun Ce could conquer China.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:45 am

In fact, Yuan Shu was not that bad (in character), the reason why he was attacked by his broher and Cao Cao is Sun Jian. (maybe u would say the Jade Seal)
Since his refusal to betray his alley, Jian; Shu was under a suprise attack and lost his capital.
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:14 pm

I re- read the SGZ, and I find that GongSun's brother was killed at the war of NangYang. So GongSun had joined Yuan Sun's alliance very early, but I think someone told me Gong's brother was assassinated by Yuan Shao after he took over Jiz- Zhou.
So, which saying is true? Will Gong has several brothers, thus both are correct?
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