Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby GuoBia » Sun May 15, 2011 6:40 am

I was going to mention that but I can't find a historical, contemporary source for it.

But I can't look right now- can someone else?
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun May 15, 2011 11:39 am

I remember being told by Yue Fei at koei (I think?) there has been a tendency in Chinese history to go "Me? Invented this new fangled thing? No no no no. It was (insert famous person here) who invented it." thus making the invention ok since the respected man, like Zhuge Liang, had invented it so your merely using old stuff.

as we saw in the escape from Chibi, Cao knew military science but was too trusting of its facts therefore he fell into the three ambushes,

Novel only.

though he could've continued the campaign every time he was recalled he instead went back to Yi and ended the campaign, showing loyalty and honoring of his lord.

Liu Shan never recalled his commanders, though Li Yan did forge an edict which Liang obeyed.

Well then what is all the emphasis on Kongming in the novel and in Dynasty Warriors? He is Liu Bei's everything in those.

1) LGZ is partly writing propaganda that requires Shu to be the goodies. Kinda hard to do if Liu Bei is ordering maps so he can backstab people, very difficult to make Liu Bei a saint if he remains the brilliant man and driving force that he was historically. However if Liu Bei becomes a decent man who has to be pushed into these things with extreme reluctance after rejecting countless opportunities out of the goodness of his heart and is inept to an extent, it is easier to explain everything away. Liu Bei becomes a guy who spends battles weeping over crushed daffodils and LGZ can make someone else the driving force.

2) The timing of Liang joining is convenient as, once Liu Bei flees Jing, he starts a comeback. Many reasons for that historically but Liang is well placed for a novel writer to give him credit.

3) Entertainment. After Liu Bei and Cao Cao are dead, LGZ's big rivalry has vanished. Now he could do "administrator and inventor turned inexperienced commander vs, at first, experienced Cao Zhen and then a struggling Sima Yi who needs his Emperor's help". Or "super genius who helped found the kingdom vs the only man who can stop him." Which sounds more entertaining?
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun May 15, 2011 2:12 pm

To be fair in the modern way of story telling I'd opt for the first as it allows for more character devlopment. Except I probably wouldn't mention Sima Yi needed Cao Rui's help.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby TigerTally » Sun May 15, 2011 2:36 pm

The historical Zhuge Liang did not really invent many, if any, things besides the four-wheeler.

KingOfWei wrote:And the meatbun?

Mantou, or steamed bun, may not necessarily be Zhuge Liang’s invention, both because of its ordinariness and the fact that an early Jin scholar Shu Xi 束皙 (?-300) had mentioned the name in his work, thus discrediting the made-by-Zhuge-Liang hypothesis.

KingOfWei wrote:What about the Siege Ramp?

mrbeate wrote:Pretty sure people say he invented the siege ram on fire

Both of them were put forward by Mozi long before the 3k period.

mrbeate wrote:and eight array battle formation

That was suggested by Sun Bin in his Art of War.

mrbeate wrote:Also the Chu Ko Nu that can shoot multiple arrows at once, and the Kongming Lamp! <-- (not sure if he invented it but i like em)

Lian Nu 連弩 (repeating crossbow) and Chu Ko Nu 諸葛弩 were not the same. Zhuge Liang did improve the design of the former but never invented a new weapon, while the latter was a Ming dynasty weapon named after him due to its similar function.

Kongming lamp actually had nothing to do with the person. It appeared long after the 3k period.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrbeate » Sun May 15, 2011 3:44 pm

TigerTally wrote:Lian Nu 連弩 (repeating crossbow) and Chu Ko Nu 諸葛弩 were not the same. Zhuge Liang did improve the design of the former but never invented a new weapon, while the latter was a Ming dynasty weapon named after him due to its similar function.

Ahhh. Thank you.

I seriously thought he made the kongming lamp :( , those are so great.
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