Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Sun May 15, 2011 5:52 am

Hmm, i have to agree with Mr.Beate, Zhuge Liang was more of an administrator than a General, despite the novels over glorifing of him in the campaigns, actually when you read his documents like Petition on
Taking The Field, the way he writes shows his skill for diplomacy and persuasion.
In Battle though Cao Cao's version of battlefield deception versus what other Generals exhibited was a big difference, as we saw in the escape from Chibi, Cao knew military science but was too trusting of its facts therefore he fell into the three ambushes, he also had a major arrogant side which contributed to him losing Chibi for not taking certain precautions, or thinking things thru for that matter,Chaining the Ships, and not expecting an unseasonable wind shift.
Zhuge Liang is though over glorified in the novel, but he does have a more calm and modest side to him,
he never usually got arrogant about his skill or his army(except at Chencang for some reason) he rarely got angry(unless thats just the novel) and though he could've continued the campaign every time he was recalled he instead went back to Yi and ended the campaign, showing loyalty and honoring of his lord.

Cao Cao would win if he was calm and thoughtful, and took all possiblities into account before engageing.
Zhuge Liang would win if he could out decieve Cao or Cao Cao was being arrogant, and would lose if he himself got mad. Nice digging up this thread King Of wei!
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 5:57 am

I never said Zhuge Liang was a general. Was he not Liu Bei's go-to-guy? He was his primary strategist.

Lord Yang Jiahua wrote: Nice digging up this thread King Of wei!


Sure man. I like looking at the old threads to see what they were.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrbeate » Sun May 15, 2011 6:02 am

KingOfWei wrote:I never said Zhuge Liang was a general. Was he not Liu Bei's go-to-guy? He was his primary strategist.


No he wasn't. Just a trusted official who ran things. Yizhou campaign's strategist was Pang Tong. Han Zhong campaign's strategist was Fa Zheng, and the taking of Jingzhou was done by Liu Bei himself.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:06 am

mrbeate wrote:
KingOfWei wrote:I never said Zhuge Liang was a general. Was he not Liu Bei's go-to-guy? He was his primary strategist.


No he wasn't. Just a trusted official who ran things. Yizhou campaign's strategist was Pang Tong. Han Zhong campaign's strategist was Fa Zheng, and the taking of Jingzhou was done by Liu Bei himself.


Well then what is all the emphasis on Kongming in the novel and in Dynasty Warriors? He is Liu Bei's everything in those.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrbeate » Sun May 15, 2011 6:09 am

KingOfWei wrote:Well then what is all the emphasis on Kongming in the novel and in Dynasty Warriors? He is Liu Bei's everything in those.


The novel tends to make Zhuge Liang be this amazing genius that none can topple. Which wasn't true since there were men who were more talented. Dynasty warriors is more based on the novel then actual history.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:11 am

mrbeate wrote:
KingOfWei wrote:Well then what is all the emphasis on Kongming in the novel and in Dynasty Warriors? He is Liu Bei's everything in those.


The novel tends to make Zhuge Liang be this amazing genius that none can topple. Which wasn't true since there were men who were more talented. Dynasty warriors is more based on the novel then actual history.


I know that about Dynasty Warriors, but did Kongming not historically invent a lot of things? That must back up his genius in some form.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrbeate » Sun May 15, 2011 6:19 am

KingOfWei wrote:I know that about Dynasty Warriors, but did Kongming not historically invent a lot of things? That must back up his genius in some form.


He invented a few things, some people credit him to inventions which he had no part of.

The only notable thing I would say he invented was the wheelbarrow, and eight array battle formation.

Edit: Also the Chu Ko Nu that can shoot multiple arrows at once, and the Kongming Lamp! <-- (not sure if he invented it but i like em)
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:22 am

mrbeate wrote:
KingOfWei wrote:I know that about Dynasty Warriors, but did Kongming not historically invent a lot of things? That must back up his genius in some form.


He invented a few things, some people credit him to inventions which he had no part of.

The only notable thing I would say he invented was the wheelbarrow, and eight array battle formation.

Edit: Also the Chu Ko Nu that can shoot multiple arrows at once, and the Kongming Lamp! <-- (not sure if he invented it but i like em)


What about the Siege Ramp?
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrbeate » Sun May 15, 2011 6:35 am

KingOfWei wrote:What about the Siege Ramp?


Definitely did not invent that.

Pretty sure people say he invented the siege ram on fire. Which isn't even great since he didn't capture much cities with it and later times people didn't even use it.
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Re: Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:38 am

mrbeate wrote:
KingOfWei wrote:What about the Siege Ramp?


Definitely did not invent that.

Pretty sure people say he invented the siege ram on fire. Which isn't even great since he didn't capture much cities with it and later times people didn't even use it.


And the meatbun?
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