Cao Cao vs. Zhuge Liang

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Unread postby Master Fu Xi » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:15 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:And the most overrated strategist is Xu Shu. Definatly.


Would you care to explain your reasoning on that? After all you are a big man of proof :wink:
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:19 am

http://www.3kingdoms.net/sgzbios/shuchr ... sgzbio.htm

This is Xu Shu's SGZ bio. The Big Man of Proof says that this does not show much of anything to consider him the big strategist he is in the novel.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby James » Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:09 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Hao Zhao.

On the note of Zhuge Liang, Hao Zhao is hardly a balanced chip to consider in the argument. He held a defensive position that, if defended properly (as he did) would have held off just about anybody given the size of Zhuge Liang's forces in that battle. Hao Zhao should be commended for his role in that affair, but it hardly places him in a leage of equal consideration.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:23 pm

He may not be equal but he is capable of winning.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby James » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:45 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:He may not be equal but he is capable of winning.

Most certainly he was. And he could have accomplished the same against virtually anyone else, perhaps including others such as Cao Cao himself, Lu Xun, Sima Yi, Jia Xu, and on. I was simply pointing out that it isn't the best weight to use in considering Zhuge Liang's talent. What should be looked at is how he handled it, whether he had to attack or not, and how those things compared in retrospect to other options.
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Unread postby _Zhuge_Jin_ » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:11 pm

Apples and oranges. To me Zhuge is a better strategist, but as a leader of a kingdom, Zhuge was flawed. He was still the best shu ruler, but Cao... he was just so good at what he did.
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Unread postby James » Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:55 pm

_Zhuge_Jin_ wrote:Apples and oranges. To me Zhuge is a better strategist, but as a leader of a kingdom, Zhuge was flawed. He was still the best shu ruler, but Cao... he was just so good at what he did.

Elaborate on your views? Why draw those conclusions?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:02 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Cao Cao killed his captives. Yuan Shao's men were buried alive. That is no way to treat them. Xuzhou was a slaughter. His men at Changban were drived to insane limits.


Yuan Shao's men were a threat to further Wei conquests in the north and had to be disposed of.Otherwise he might have the Yuans their army again.
In Xuzhou,Cao's plan,though brutal, was brilliant.Destroy Tao Qian by completely removing his ability to make war on anyone.The strongest man will fall if you baseball bat his knees.

Hao Zhao.


He held off a siege for twenty days and he's great?Zhuge Liang left because he ran out of food and he's great?

If that's the case then all I can say is ALL HAIL LUO XIAN!
Six months is twenty days nine times.So Luo Xian is 9 times better than Bu Xie and Lu Kang combined than Hao Zhao is better than Zhuge Liang.But wait!These guys didn't run out of food so maybe we should increase Luo Xian's greatness twofold!So that's 18 times better.

Stupid isn't it?I'm just trying to show how this sort of nonesense when applied to other situations can turn out.
Your points regularly do not make sense.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:07 am

I never said Hao Zhao is better then Zhuge Liang, but I said he can beat him. Just like Luo Xian can beat Lu Kang and Bu Xie.

In Xuzhou,Cao's plan,though brutal, was brilliant.Destroy Tao Qian by completely removing his ability to make war on anyone.The strongest man will fall if you baseball bat his knees.


I must greatly disagree. This is a huge strategic error and was obviously done by an angry arrogant Cao Cao at the time, he wasn't thinking enough. Why defeat him so much? Tao Qian was a tiny little person with a tiny little army and he's about as powerfull as Wang Lang. You used to say Lu Xun was bad for his ploy at Xiangyang. This is to a far greater level. Cao Cao kills a population that can easily be conqeured and become his own. This is the level of brutality that disregards strategy. Everyone was too afraid to speak against it, since Cao was so mad.

Anyway, this is a stupid strategy, not even strategy at all. He could have just conquered Tao and gained the population. Instead, he foolishly killed them. In the end he got Xuzhou and it's really stupid to do this because it's his own population.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:02 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:I must greatly disagree. This is a huge strategic error and was obviously done by an angry arrogant Cao Cao at the time, he wasn't thinking enough. Why defeat him so much? Tao Qian was a tiny little person with a tiny little army and he's about as powerfull as Wang Lang. You used to say Lu Xun was bad for his ploy at Xiangyang. This is to a far greater level. Cao Cao kills a population that can easily be conqeured and become his own. This is the level of brutality that disregards strategy. Everyone was too afraid to speak against it, since Cao was so mad.


Tao Qian was no Wang Lang.He commanded the forces of an entire province and was potentially a dangerous enemy.
Cao Cao cannot afford to conquer Xuzhou at this point.To conquer Xuzhou would mean leaving an occupying force there and at this point Xuzhou was more land than he presently occupied.He cannot stretch his forces so badly.
Additionally occupying Xuzhou means that he now has new fronts opened,specifically against Yuan Shu and also a larger area for contact with Yuan Shao.
Not to mention that his current lands aren't even fully integrated into his force yet.You'll realize that while he was away several officials,among them Chen Gong,rose up and revolted.They invited Lu Bu to lead them.How can he start considering new territory when he is not even fully secure in his original territory.
It's an ideal you constantly disregard when you discuss Zhou Yu's two kingdom plan and Sun Ce's supposed northern march.It's also basic RTK game strategy.When you're just starting out,it's not a good idea to stretch yourself early if your resources aren't up to it.

He needed Tao Qian to be taught an object lesson and he needed to completely remove his war capability.He achieved that.I'd say that's a mission accomplished.
Do I find this brutal?Yes.
Do I find it effective beyond question?Absolutely.
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