Cao Cao vs. Liu Bei

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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:50 pm

Master Fu Xi wrote:What? Cao had more officers and were also more talented. At the beginning he only had Guan, Zhang, and Jian Yong. That's it. He didn't get more officers till he inherited Tao Qian's land. When then he only got 3 more officer (Mi Zhu and Fang and Sun Qian). And by then Cao Cao had a lot more officers. So you can't call Cao Cao better cause he had better generals.


You look at this from an rotk9 prespective. Liu Bei had generals. Everyone did. They just didn't do anything. Also, Jian Yong and others were advisors. Liu Bei had plenty of officers, he could name anyone an officer if he wished. Cao Cao started out just like Liu Bei after YT rebellion. He had few men and land and just escaped Dong Zhuo. Being a lone, and wanted man, with no support, he quickly gathered generals, armies and expanded. It really is amazing.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Rommel » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:53 pm

Master Fu Xi, it is exactly what I want to tell you. Why did Cao Cao have more officers than Liu Bei because he had charm that attracted more talented person to him. It is not easy to manage smart people especially many smart persons. It requires excellent leader skill to have those people loyal to you.

Bu Zhi, I know how Cao Cao got what he got. Thanks anyway. My post was for Zhuge Jin's comment that Liu Bei could do better if he had what Cao Cao had. Cao Cao got those with his hard works. Liu Bei could get the same if he had the same skills. Since he said that Liu Bei could do better I ask Zhuge Jin what Liu Bei had achieved or done to make him the better one or master of people as someone claimed.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:55 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:You look at this from an rotk9 prespective. Liu Bei had generals. Everyone did. They just didn't do anything.

Oh? Care to name some of them?

Liu Bei had plenty of officers, he could name anyone an officer if he wished.

Not true. Liu Bei, not having any official position, can't really name anyone an officer. It really is like RoTK9--the higher your rank, the more officers you can appoint. Furthermore, he didn't know anyone--there weren't that many people who wanted to follow him around. He had neither power nor land.

Cao Cao started out just like Liu Bei after YT rebellion. He had few men and land and just escaped Dong Zhuo. Being a lone, and wanted man, with no support, he quickly gathered generals, armies and expanded. It really is amazing.

Cao Cao is different. He came from a well-connected family, and had money to spare.
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Unread postby Master Fu Xi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:58 pm

Rommel wrote:Master Fu Xi, it is exactly what I want to tell you. Why did Cao Cao have more officers than Liu Bei because he had charm that attracted more talented person to him. It is not easy to manage smart people especially many smart persons. It requires excellent leader skill to have those people loyal to you.


Well there wasn't much talent out there then. Only really the YT remenets were out there rebelling against the forces out there. But he did get them when he moved to Ru Nan and also he employed a lot of help before and after Chi Bi as well.
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Unread postby Rommel » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:04 pm

Cao Cao is different. He came from a well-connected family, and had money to spare.[/quote]

Lady Wu To my knowledge Cao Hong, not his father, was the one who funded Cao Cao's army to fight against YT. Before this opportunity Cao Cao was striped off his title of a low ranked officer by the enuches because of the incident of "five color sticks?" He was saved because he had one of enuches as his adopted father or he would be killed by the corrupted ruling class of Han.
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Unread postby Master Fu Xi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:06 pm

Yes Cao was actually adopted into a wealthy family so he was lucky and his name could easily spread through out the land.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:12 pm

Rommel wrote:Lady Wu To my knowledge Cao Hong, not his father, was the one who funded Cao Cao's army to fight against YT. Before this opportunity Cao Cao was striped off his title of a low ranked officer by the enuches because of the incident of "five color sticks?" He was saved because he had one of enuches as his adopted father or he would be killed by the corrupted ruling class of Han.

Cao Cao was never stripped of his title; Cao Man's Biography only says that "they despised him, but were unable to harm him". In fact, he kept getting promoted until he decided to quit the position on account of illness, but was later summoned back to work when the rebellions started. Later, in the main text, Chen Shou wrote: "When the Great Progenitor arrived at Chenliu, he gave away his family's wealth in order to recruit a volunteer force for the purpose of killing Dong Zhuo."

Cao Hong did help him out, but at first he really did just spend his own family's dough.
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Unread postby Master Fu Xi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:13 pm

And wasted it on that part. That's why he didn't seem to have much.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:14 pm

Yes, but when Cao ran away from Dong Zhuo, he didn't spend time packing his stuff or anything. He could have abondoned it all. And even if he did, and went to some market to buy something, some guy would see him, know who he is, get someone to help him kill Cao, and take his money and hand his head to Dong for more rewards. Even if Cao had movey, he either abondoned it, or was unable to use it.

Oh? Care to name some of them?



Sorry I can't. I heard though that in when Shu surrendered, they had a large number of officers. Yet despite this, there was nothing I saw naming them and SGZ only mentions famous officers worth mentioning. But Liu Bei has to have had officers to run his army. The Han was pretty much powerless at that point and Liu could have just named someone officer to help manage his army. He had no problem becoming King of Hanzhong, why should he have problems naming someone an officer.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Master Fu Xi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:18 pm

Bu Zhi we are talking early Liu Bei here. Like YT ADZC and the little conquerer. Not when Liu Bei had Shu and all that land. In other words before Liu Bei went to Ru Nan and got Zhao Yun and the YT remenents.
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