Cao Cao vs. Liu Bei

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Cao Cao vs. Liu Bei

Unread postby Rommel » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:27 pm

I have always thought that Cao Cao & Liu Bei were two of three warlords who survived from many battles during the chaotic 3k period. Basically they had done not much different stuff but the military accomplishment. Cao Cao started from scratch and laid down the foundation of Wei; Liu Bei survived from running and became the first emperor of Shu. I would call them both as capable leaders of the time. Some people, however, always try to make Cao Cao a vicious tyrant and Liu Bei a godlike noble king. I wonder why and please list what your reasons are (to think that way) (a simple outline is good enough because I believe that we all know about the details).
Rommel
Sage
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:57 pm

Unread postby Li Zhen » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:53 pm

IMO, Cao Cao was the more capable of the two. A lot of Wei's power resulted from his excellent leadership, and he was skilled in both internal and external politics. On the other hand, Liu Bei was a relatively incapable man who largely relied on others.

I cannot say much about the two men's morality, but Cao Cao was really the one who deserved the right to rule, and a lot of his historical acts of tyranny were but necessary steps in asserting his authority.

The author of ROTK could have placed a successful bias either way, but I think it is easier to exaggerate Liu Bei's virtue. Luo Guanzhong chose his novel to focus on Liu Bei, mainly because feelings at the time were pro-South, pro-Han, pro-Shu, and he would be telling them what they wanted to hear.
User avatar
Li Zhen
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: Shanghai, China

Unread postby Rommel » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:18 pm

I agree that Cao Cao should be considered as more capable. Since Liu Bei was also winner from "purge" in late Han I give Liu Bei credits to what he had done to survive. I am curious why some people keep calling Cao Cao tyrant and Liu Bei the god. What did they do to make those people having those kind of impression?
Rommel
Sage
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:57 pm

Unread postby Li Zhen » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:25 pm

As I mentioned, it is mainly the book ROTK which gives people their impression of the era. Luo Guanzhong's preference of Liu Bei over Cao Cao is reflected in the book and etched into the minds of all those who read it.

Also, during the time of the book's writing, Mongols ruled China from the north, and all historical northern states were looked down upon. To a person who lived under Mongol rule, the southern states of Shu and Wu seemed to be much more respectable and interesting. As a result, the poeple empathized much more with Liu Bei as well as other southern leaders throughout China's history. Cao Cao seemed to them like an evil northern person who must surely share similarities with the cruel invading mongols.
User avatar
Li Zhen
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: Shanghai, China

Unread postby Rommel » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:51 pm

If that is the reason it would be stupid considering Cao Cao, a Han people, had won many battles against norther non-Han tribes during his time. To my knowledge, Cao Cao ruled well like the other famous rulers throughout Chinese history. He was also a brillant military leader and a proliferate poet and writer. He did make mistakes, listen to wrong advices, lose battles, but it makes him more like a real person to me.
Rommel
Sage
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:57 pm

Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:12 pm

Liu Bei can't compare to Cao Cao.No one from the era can compare.

Cao Cao was talented at everything.He was a field commander,strategist,politician and he had crafty plans for everything.He created his kingdom in the harshest environment possible starting with nothing save his family property.
The man is just plain outstanding.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Sima Hui » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:14 pm

Exar Kun, even though I'm a Shuist, I have to agree with you. No leader of that time (and maybe even to this day) was able to match Cao Cao. He was a genius, charismatic, strong, caring and he was respectful towards his subordinates and modest as well.

Liu Bei was a nice guy and a hero, but it's fairly certain that Cao Cao was the better man.
This topic is an affront to both The Man and The Son of the Man.

-Ts'aoist

Ssuma I sucks.
He was okay when he was an obedient slave of The Man.


-Ts'aoist

Join the Cult and receive the True and Holy Word of The Man.
Sima Hui
Cult of Ts'aoist
 
Posts: 1670
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:21 pm
Location: Serving the Most Sacred Disciple of the Man

Re: Cao Cao vs. Liu Bei

Unread postby Waking Dragon » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:34 pm

Rommel wrote:I have always thought that Cao Cao & Liu Bei were two of three warlords who survived from many battles during the chaotic 3k period. Basically they had done not much different stuff but the military accomplishment. Cao Cao started from scratch and laid down the foundation of Wei; Liu Bei survived from running and became the first emperor of Shu. I would call them both as capable leaders of the time. Some people, however, always try to make Cao Cao a vicious tyrant and Liu Bei a godlike noble king. I wonder why and please list what your reasons are (to think that way) (a simple outline is good enough because I believe that we all know about the details).


Cao Cao was a master of War...Liu Bei was a master of the People...Both ruled and fought bravely to conquer China...PeAcE
"Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water." r.i.p legend...

Bruce Lee
User avatar
Waking Dragon
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:20 pm
Location: "Where the sun don't shine when she gone."

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:02 am

Liu Bei is undeserving to be compared to Cao. Cao Cao was a much better general, a better military leader, he was a whole lot smarter. He actually did administrative duties unlike Liu Bei who gets a 0 in that feild.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby Master Fu Xi » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:53 am

I also believe Cao Cao was better than Liu Bei, even though I like him better :wink: but Liu Bei's escape was also pretty impressive since he ended up being the first emperor of Shu. But Cao Cao was much more capable of almost everything but Charm though he had a lot. He did some bad things :wink: but of course no one is perfect.
Master Fu Xi
Initiate
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:49 am

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved