Who was better: Gan Ning or Xu Huang

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Who was better: Gan Ning or Xu Huang

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:21 pm

[Note: This is a sequal to the debate in the subordinate topic, please continue it here]



Who is a better general, or a subordinate, Gan Ning or Xu Huang? Of course you know where I stand so let me start this off with an evaluation.

Gan Ning,
from Gan Ning's SGZ bio translated by Lady Wu
Leadership:

As a strong young man of the roaming chivalric ideal, he gathered a group of idle youths and became their leader. The group followed him, carrying bells; when the commoners heard the bells they knew that it was Ning coming. Whenever someone met with him, from [commoner to] the senior scribes of the city, if they received Gan Ning well he would party along with them, and if not, he would unleash his followers to rob all their property. He went on like this, robbing and killing within the borders until he was 20-something years old.


Comments: Gan Ning seems to have been a bandit leader at a very young age, perhaps even before he was in his 20s. It seems almost like he was a born leader. Escpecially seeing his reputation is seems he was feared and a somewhat famous bandit if people knew of him so well.

Later on, Gan Ning followed Zhou Yu to defend against and to defeat Lord Cao at Wulin. Then he attacked Cao Ren at Nanjun. Before the city was taken, Ning suggested that he should first take a shortcut to attack Yiling. Yiling was taken immediately after his arrival, and so Ning entered to hold it. At that time he had several hundred soldiers under him, and even with the newly acquired troops, they merely numbered a thousand. And so Cao Ren sent five or six thousand to besiege Ning. Ning bore the attack for days. The enemy devised siege towers, from which they shot a fury of arrows into the city, causing all the defending soldiers to panic. Only Ning spoke and laughed as if nothing was happening. He dispatched a messenger to report the situation to Zhou Yu. Using Lü Meng’s plan, Zhou Yu led his men and lifted the siege.


Comments: Gan Ning's capture of Yiling was the decisive blow for this battle. As well as that, he held off Cao Ren's seige long despite him being in recently capturedland and him being outnumbered. This shows he was good at offensives and defensives. Taking Yiling and defending it to.

After that, Gan Ning followed Lu Su to guard Yiyang and to defend against Guan Yu. Yu claimed to have 30,000 men; and, selecting 5,000 elite troops, he went to the shallows about 10 li upriver from the prefecture, ready to ford the river at night. Lu Su held council with his officers. At that time Ning had 300 men, and he said, “You could give me an additional 500 men, and I’ll go to confront Guan Yu. I guarantee that once Guan Yu hears me coming, he would not dare to ford the river. He could only ford the river if I am captured first.” At that Lu Su selected an additional 1,000 men for Ning, and Ning departed at night. When Guan Yu heard of this, he stopped his advance, and instead of fording the river he made camp there. Even now this place is called “Guan Yu’s Shallows”. Sun Quan praised Gan Ning for that, and made him Grand Administrator of Xiling, and gave him control over the prefectures of Yangxin and Xiazhi.


Comments: Gan Ning seems to have a reputation that even Guan Yu feared. There is a lot more to this then meets the eye but will be discussed later. All I can say for now is that the so called invincible God of War was repelled by a force several times smaller then his own on the feild. And it didn't even cost one life.

After that, he followed Sun Quan to attack Wan, and was in charge for taking the city walls. Ning, chains in hand, scaled the walls, going before the soldiers. And so the city was captured, and Zhu Guang (the prefect) was taken. According to the amount of merit, Lü Meng came first, and Ning was second. He was then given the title of “Rank-breaking General”.


Comments: It seems Gan Ning takes another offensive victory. (note, Wan can also be known as "Huan" city. Do not confuse this with Nanyang, the Wan spoken of here is in the Lujiang area). Gan Ning took the city by scaling it's walls, truly a master at seige. As well as that, this event captured the city as well as it's prefect.

After that, Lord Cao attacked from Ruxu, and Ning was inspector of the vanguard. He was ordered to break through the front camps of the enemy. Sun Quan sent them a special feast with grains and wine, and Ning gave it to the hundred-odd men under him to eat. After the meal, Ning took a silver bowl, filled it with wine, and after drinking two bowlfuls he poured a bowl for his chief controller. The chief controller knelt down and did not dare to take the bowl. So Ning drew his sword, placed it on his lap, and rebuked him, “You are responsible to the lord, and not to me? Even I, Gan Ning, do not seek to avoid death; why do you alone fear your death?” The chief controller saw that Ning was angry, and so he rose and took the wine ceremoniously, and had each soldier drink a bowl of wine from the silver bowl. When the time of the second watch came, they sneaked quietly to the enemy’s camp and attacked. The enemy was startled and retreated. After that, Ning became more and more honored, and his command increased by 2000 men


Comments: It seems Ning proves himself as a master of raids. With only a hundred men(less then Zhang Liao) Gan Ning successfully raids Cao and does not struggle as Zhang Liao did. He rallied his men using fear, but it was noteworthy tactic as the soldiers showed skill in battle despite the fact that some may seem Ning as "strict". He was like Zhuge Liang in a way, he was strict but his people followed him and rarly broke the rules.


Although Ning was rough and bloodthirsty, he was outright and had good ideas; he valued property lightly but respected talented men, and was able to kept his fighting men well. And in turn his fighting men were ready to give their lives for him. In the 20th year of Jian’an (AD 216), Gan Ning participated in the Hefei expedition. It chanced that there was an epidemic, and all the troops have retreated. Those who were still remaining were the thousand-odd brave warriors guarding Sun Quan’s chariot, as well as Lü Meng, Jiang Qin, Ling Tong, and Gan Ning. They were heading to the north of the Xiaoyao Fords along with Sun Quan. Zhang Liao, once he caught sight of them, rushed there, leading both mounted and unmounted troops. Gan Ning took his bow and shot at the enemy, and fought bravely alongside Ling Tong. When Gan Ning asked severely why the horns and drums were not sounded loudly, his spirits were high and his looks determined. Sun Quan praised him highly for that



Comments: This one speaks for itself. Ning rallied the men once again with his strictness in the last few sentences. As well as that, his men loved him and followed him to the end, as seen in other notes.

Other Notes

Wushu:

Ning, upon leaving, gathered up those who had left him as well as those who were willing to follow him, and had a following of several hundred people.


Comments: In this, Gan Ning leaves Huang Zu for Sun Quan. He managed to gather many to join him as well and this shows that despite his background, he was a skilled leader.


Jiangbiao Zhuan:

: When Lord Cao marched from Ruxu, he claimed that he had foot soldiers and mounted soldiers 400,000 men strong, and set camp by the River. Sun Quan led 70,000 men there in response, and commanded Gan Ning to lead 3,000 men to be vanguard. Quan secretly ordered Ning to break into the Wei ranks at night. And so Ning selected a hundred-odd braves and went straight toward Lord Cao’s camp. He had them pull down the barricades. Leaping over the barriers, they entered the camp, and cut off scores of heads. The northern army was greatly startled and panicked, and torches were lit all around. But by that time Ning’s men had already returned to his own camp; they sounded the drums and horns, and yelled cries of victory. That night, Ning went back to report to Sun Quan. Quan was pleased, “That’s certainly enough to frighten the old man [Cao Cao]! That was a chance for me to see your valor.” And right then he gave him a thousand bolts of silk and a hundred swords. Quan said, “Mengde has Zhang Liao, and I have Xingba. We are matching in strength.” After stalling for a little over a month, the northern army retreated.


Comments: This seems to back up my statement of comparing Ning to Zhang Liao. The part that mentions them cutting off many heads, as well as no evidence at all that they struggled shows that Gan Ning was a skilled leader and that he was an excellent commander.

Ding Feng's SGZ bio, translated by Han Xin

Early in his career, because Ding Feng had shown that he was strong and brave, he was given the rank of a minor unit commander working under Gan Ning, Lu Xun, and Pan Zhang. On many occurrences, Ding Feng, with others to attack and punish the enemies, often went in with the frontal force. Ding Feng often killed the enemy’s flag bearing generals and was usually wounded in battle.


Comments: According to this bio, it mentions Ding Feng serving under Gan Ning. It seems possible that Gan Ning was able to breed such skilled commanders, as Ding Feng served him first(Pan Zhang's bio mentions Zhang getting Ning's men when Ning died, thus Ding Feng went to Pan Zhang, same for Lu Xun when Pan Zhang died).

Conclusion: After seeing this info, it's apparent why Gan Ning is a skilled leader. He defeated many enemies, he never lost a battle and he led men from a very young age. His men loved him and would give their lives to him and this made Gan Ning's unit very skilled and battle hardened, so Gan Ning never struggled in battle, no matter what the case.



More to come....
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Stedfel » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:44 pm

Perhaps Xu Huang should also have some of his accomplishments posted? It's not good for the first post to be so biased it hurts.

Considering that Xu huang lacks his own SGZ bio, I will scan some other bios for information on him, then post it here.

As for Ding Feng, he was a skilled man and general, but you have absolutely no proof that Gan Ning had anything to do with him becoming as great as he did. Zhang Liao served Lu Bu, but are you going to say that helped his tactical abilities? I'd hope not.

As for Gan Ning, I would like to post a note on one of the paragraphs in his bio:


(2) Wushu: Ning took his chivalric code lightly and often killed people. He was infamous throughout the commandery for hiding in a house and committing murder there. When he went about, if he was on land he had rows of carriages and steeds, and if he was on water he had lines of light ships. His servants all wore embroidered silks that made the roads bright as they walked by. When he traveled, his quarters were often covered with woven silk, and when he left he would cut it all up and throw it away, as a demonstration of his extravagance.


Murder and extravagance are not good things.......
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:59 pm

Xu Huang is better in every way quite simply.
But this debate on the whole is pretty ridiculous I think.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:10 pm

I will post Xu Huang later and there is an SGZ on him but I can't copy and qoute it so I have to rewrite everything first and then post it. It's in the annoying format of many bios like Liu Bei's and Zhuge's bios on tk.net.

I can give you the link to Xu Huang's bio, and then you can debate me:
http://www.romancingcathay.com/pdfs/RTKQ08.pdf

Scroll down and you will find it. And Xu Huang isn't better. Ning is certianly stronger, no doubt about it. He's also smarter. He studied classics, debated and made many other ideas that were break through plans were thought up by him. Xu Huang just advised Cao on like two occasions while Ning thought up battle plans and strategems and even beat someone like Zhang Zhao in a debate.
Leadership is easy as well. Xu Huang's many successes are not note worthy. They are mear bandit rustling and serving under a powerfull commander, yet doing nothing. For example, in many bios it would say something like "so and so defeated Cao Cao at Chibi". This is propoganda, it just means the guy served the commander who defeated Cao Cao. This is common in Wei bios and Wu bios, were generals are overrated like this. It is also shown in Xu Huang's bio.

To me, his only noteworhty accomplishments are defeating Guan Yu, capturing Lu Bu's generals, and defeating Ma Chao. Other incidents are common and show not much skill. And when his bio mentions he defended against Zhuge Jin, it actually forgot to mention him losing. Xiahou Shang, Cao Zhen, Zhang He and Xu Huang attack Jiangling. Zhu Ran defends it from seige and holds out very well. Zhuge Jin leads reinforcements and then Xiahou Shang gets routed by Zhuge Jin, Zhu Ran and the other generals. Same for Nanjun. Xu Huang lost and his SGZ fails to mention it due to attempting to glorify him.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Stedfel » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:29 pm

Scroll down and you will find it. And Xu Huang isn't better. Ning is certianly stronger, no doubt about it. He's also smarter. He studied classics, debated and made many other ideas that were break through plans were thought up by him. Xu Huang just advised Cao on like two occasions while Ning thought up battle plans and strategems and even beat someone like Zhang Zhao in a debate.
Leadership is easy as well. Xu Huang's many successes are not note worthy. They are mear bandit rustling and serving under a powerfull commander, yet doing nothing. For example, in many bios it would say something like "so and so defeated Cao Cao at Chibi". This is propoganda, it just means the guy served the commander who defeated Cao Cao. This is common in Wei bios and Wu bios, were generals are overrated like this. It is also shown in Xu Huang's bio.


On saying that Gan Ning is certanly stronger and smarter, please do provide proof for these statements.

Gan Ning lead a bunch of bandits, Zhang Jiao lead a bunch of bandits, Liao Hua lead a bunch of bandits, Pei Yuanshao lead a bunch of bandits, Zhang Yan lead a bunch of bandits.

Leading bandits is a completely differint thing then leading soldiers. I wouldn't be surprised if they mainly attacked caravans or other such lightly defended things.

And if the post I previously pointed out holds water, then Gan Ning would have been unable to beat this person(s) in a fair fight if he was so much stronger then Xu Huang. Even if it was an entire household, Cao Cao and Chen Gong managed to pull that off.

On your quote about bias and propaganda, I guess you aren't going to even consider that Gan ning's bio could have bias. You plainly said that happens in Wu bios.

On Zhang Zhao, I really don't see him as overly intelligent. his bio struck me as if he meorized a lot of stuff.

On saying that a lot of Xu huang's accomplishment's were ordinary. Gan Ning held off Cao Ren, that's certainly something I would consider odinary. (I know, that was a low blow at Cao Ren). You also have to admit that defending is much easier then attacking, and basically, that's what Gan Ning was doing.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:27 am

Leading bandits is not extrodinary. But Ning did it at a very young age and had a huge reputation. Still worth something.

You only aim at the un-impressive things I said. I guess you must agree on everything else said about Gan Ning. Why don't you show evidence saying Xu Huang is better.

Here's what makes Ning stronger(bold areas indicate personal strength).

He went on like this, robbing and killing within the borders until he was 20-something years old.


He was infamous throughout the commandery for hiding in a house and committing murder there.


The pursuit was hot, and Ning, taking the rear as he was an adept archer, shot and killed Colonel Ling Cao [of Wu].


Ning, chains in hand, scaled the walls, going before the soldiers.


Although Ning was rough and bloodthirsty, he was outright and had good ideas; he valued property lightly but respected talented men, and was able to kept his fighting men well.


Zhang Liao, once he caught sight of them, rushed there, leading both mounted and unmounted troops. Gan Ning took his bow and shot at the enemy, and fought bravely alongside Ling Tong.


However, when [Ning] left to go back to his boat, he tied the boy up to a mulberry tree, and taking a bow and arrow he killed him himself.


From Lu Meng's SGZ bio:
Gan Ning had been violent and fond of killing,

“Since the world has not been settled and fighters like Gan Ning are hard to come by, it would be best to tolerate him.”


Gan Ning being smart:

Ning presented his advice to Quan as thus: “During these times, the rule of the Han diminishes by the day, while Cao Cao increases in his insolence, and eventually will steal the throne. The lands in southern Jing have hills of convenient formation, and rivers that link to each other – this is an appropriate place for the western border of the kingdom. I, Ning, have observed Liu Biao. His planning is not far-reaching and his sons are useless, and are definitely not ones to whom the estate can be passed on. My lord, you should consider this land soon, and do not fall behind Cao. The plan for obtaining this objective is best started by defeating Huang Zu. Zu is old now and quite senile. He lacks both money and grains, and cheats those around him for profit. He makes demands of his officers and causes them to begrudge him. All his boats and weaponry are defective but have gone unrepaired. He is negligent in farming, and his troops are without discipline. If my lord goes now, his defeat is a surety. Once you defeat Zu’s army, you can march on to the west, take the Chu Pass as a western holding, and then the strength of the expedition will grow and you would be able to consider the Ba-shu lands at last.” Quan approved of this speech. At that time, Zhang Zhao was present, and wishing to put Ning on the spot, asked, “The lands around Wu are still unsettled. If the army does march forth, I am afraid that chaos would ensue here.” Ning said to Zhao, “The affairs of the state are entrusted to you, sir, as it were to Xiao He. If you, sir, are to remain in charge here while fearing chaos all the while, how can you strive to imitate the ancients?” At that, Quan raised his cup of wine to Ning, saying, “Xingba, the expedition this year is like this cup here – I give them both to you. You just put effort into establishing good stratagems so that we can conquer Zu, and you would have earned your merit then. Do not take Chief Clerk Zhang’s words to heart!” And so Quan marched west, and really did capture Zu as well as taking all his soldiers prisoner.


That alone is better then any advise Xu Huang gave Cao Cao.

Before the city was taken, Ning suggested that he should first take a shortcut to attack Yiling


You could give me an additional 500 men, and I’ll go to confront Guan Yu. I guarantee that once Guan Yu hears me coming, he would not dare to ford the river. He could only ford the river if I am captured first.” At that Lu Su selected an additional 1,000 men for Ning, and Ning departed at night. When Guan Yu heard of this, he stopped his advance, and instead of fording the river he made camp there. Even now this place is called “Guan Yu’s Shallows”. Sun Quan praised Gan Ning for that, and made him Grand Administrator of Xiling, and gave him control over the prefectures of Yangxin and Xiazhi.


Another peice of solid advise and foresight.

Although Ning was rough and bloodthirsty, he was outright and had good ideas; he valued property lightly but respected talented men, and was able to kept his fighting men well.


He stopped robbing and read quite a few works of the Masters.


Once, a serving boy from Ning’s kitchen committed an offence, and running away he sought Lü Meng’s protection. Fearing that Ning would kill the boy, Meng did not return him right away. Later on, Gan Ning brought gifts to pay respect to Meng’s mother, and just when they were about to ascend to the main hall, [Meng] brought the kitchen boy out to return to Ning. Ning promised Meng that he would not kill him. However, when [Ning] left to go back to his boat, he tied the boy up to a mulberry tree, and taking a bow and arrow he killed him himself. After that, he boarded his boat, and ordered the sailors to lengthen the barge cables while he undressed and lay inside the ship to rest. Meng was greatly ired, and beating the drums, he gathered his troops together preparing to attack Ning on his boat. When Ning heard about it, he remained lying in his ship on purpose and did not rise. Meng’s mother ran out barefooted to admonish Meng, saying, “The lord treats you as if a part of his family, and entrusted great things to you. How can you bare a private grudge and go kill Gan Ning? On the day of Ning’s death, even though the lord may not inquire into it, you have already violated the principles of being a subject.” Lü Meng, being of the most filial nature, resolved his anger at the words of his mother. And so he went to Ning’s boat, and laughing, he called out to Ning, “Xingba, my mother is treating you to a meal. Come up quickly!” Ning wept and sighed, “I have disappointed you.” And so he and Meng went back together to see Meng’s mother, and feasted for the day.


Ning planned this out. He made a plan on how to kill the boy and avoid Lu Meng. Very impressive.

Is that enough yet?
Now go see what Xu Huang did that showed him stronger then Ning or smarter.


As for propoganda:

You misunderstood my post. Here is an example of what I ment.
Later on, Gan Ning followed Zhou Yu to defend against and to defeat Lord Cao at Wulin.


This is common in Wu and Wei bios and makes it seem like the general of which the bio speaks of, really did most of the work. In fact, the general did not do anything and is just placed for participating. Happens in Wu and Wei bios a lot. You understand now. And I never said I gave Ning credit for this either.

Now, how about you back yourself up on Xu Huang, I have on Gan Ning
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Stedfel » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:44 am

Well, over all, your posts just prove him as a smart person, but also cruel, violent, and somewhat crude. Even if he did outsmart Lu Meng in killing the boy, the fact remains he brutally murdered someone.

And the reason I have yet to defend Xu Huang is that I'm just beginning to read his bio. Also, I never said I supported Xu Huang in the least, I'm just trying to combat your excessive bias.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:55 am

I think you think too highly of me.
My reason for making this topic is to debate someone and for me to win. If I post positive info for Xu Huang instead of letting people read the bios and figuring it out on their own, I would be going out of my way to help my opponent. Now when have you seen people do that. Rarly.

Yes Gan Ning is ruthless and voilent but he is also smart, strong, and great leader and general.

In terms of military, Gan Ning is near perfect. He is one of the most balanced generals in military. He was brilliant as shown and never made strategic mistakes or was fooled. He is strong and is capable of fighting in the front, and by that I mean in front of his men. He is a great leader, capable of offensive and defensive success and his record has no defeats. He is brave and his men love him. His fellow generals reccomend him(Su Fei, Lu Meng, Zhou Yu) his ruler loves him and mourned for his death. And this is all despite his record. What a great man he must be to accomplish a complete turn around in life, to turn from banditry to a brilliant scholar, general and fighter and high ranking general, liked by most of his subordinates. The only people I know who are as balanced as him are Lu Meng and Wang Ping.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Stedfel » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:24 am

What I mean is that you go out of your way to bash other characters, and try to lord your favorites over the rest. That's not the mark of a good debator, that's the mark of someone who is closeminded.

As for Gan Ning and his complete turn around. He became smart, big deal. That's what most of us do in school, but that doesn't make us wondeful scholars. And no matter how you look at it, he was still a brute during his later years. He tied someone to a tree and then shot them with an arrow, a child nonetheless, and that's just ridiculous behavior.

As for Xu Huang, I've read through his bio, and you seem to seriously underestimate the man. He put down two independant barbarian tribes, assisted in the defeat of Ma Chao by coming up with the battle plan, defeated Chen Yu, Guan Yu, Zhao Shu, Li Zou, Sui Gu, Wen Chou, Yan Liang, Zhu Bi, Yin Du, and Zhu Gai, and got Han Fan to surrender. As for the battle Shangyong agaisnt Liu Bei, it's not to clear on the victor, but since he was promoted, I'd give the victory to Xu Huang. From this, it seems to me that Xu Huang had a lot more battlefield time then Gan Ning.

And just out of curiosity, when was Xu Huang defeated? :wink:

Just as a request, next time I ask about a SGZ bio, please give me an actual bio.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:59 am

I gave you a real SGZ bio.
And yes he did lose. The first was at Nanjun, he lost to Zhou Yu. He and Cao Ren defended, Zhou Yu took the city. It's a fact.

The second time I already posted:

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote: And when his bio mentions he defended against Zhuge Jin, it actually forgot to mention him losing. Xiahou Shang, Cao Zhen, Zhang He and Xu Huang attack Jiangling. Zhu Ran defends it from seige and holds out very well. Zhuge Jin leads reinforcements and then Xiahou Shang gets routed by Zhuge Jin, Zhu Ran and the other generals. Same for Nanjun. Xu Huang lost and his SGZ fails to mention it due to attempting to glorify him.


And as for me being closeminded, I know very well of what Xu Huang did but I won't say he's better then Ning, despite that he was on the feild longer. I said I support Gan Ning and I gave reasons why he was good. Then you came in and asked why I didn't give reasons why Xu Huang was good. Two reasons why:
1) I would have to retype parts of his bio, it's in a format in which I cannot simply qoute it.
2) People don't really do that. Exar is a good example of this. He says Sun Quan was badly defeated by Zhang Liao, neglecting that Quan jumped the bridge and that his 4 generals fought bravely against Zhang Liao and saved Sun Quan. It's just how things work.

Chen Yu, Guan Yu, Zhao Shu, Li Zou, Sui Gu, Wen Chou, Yan Liang, Zhu Bi, Yin Du, and Zhu Gai, and got Han Fan to surrender


Yan Liang was defeated and killed by Guan Yu. Xu Huang just participated. That's the kind of propoganda I ment. He did nothing in the battle. If you give him credit for this, I might as well credit Gan Ning for beating Cao Cao at Chibi, he participated. Sui Gi was executed, he just killed someone. We don't even know who that is, it could have been someone elses captive, he didn't defeat him. It could have been a boy who commited and offense, who knows who Sui Gi is. Han Fan surrendered due to pursuasion, not defeat in battle. I can just say Gan Ning defeated Zhang Zhao. Zhu Bi was a bandit. Wen Chou, he did not defeat. Cao Cao beat him, he just participated.

The only note worthy leadership is Guan Yu, Li Zou, Zhao Shu, and Chen Yu. The others are all either propoganda saying he beat them when all he did was serve the guy who beat them or un worthy of leadership(like Han Fan).
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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