Zhong Hui and Deng Ai's numbers

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Zhong Hui and Deng Ai's numbers

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:28 pm

I am pretty sure this has been dicussed before and that if this thread needs to be closed i am fine with it as long as i can get a link to when this was discussed before.

How many troops did Deng Ai and Zhong Hui invade Yi with? I mean i understand that Deng Ai was a better general then Jiang Wei but was it just his talent that defeated Jiang Wei and Zhuge Zan in Yi or was it also his overwhelming numbers that he and Zhong Hui brought to the table. If i can be given a figure to answer this i would be greatfull.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:13 pm

From Zhong Hui's SGZ bio:

In the fall of the 4th year [of Jingyuan] [AD 263], an edict was issued ordering Deng Ai and Zhuge Xu to each lead 30,000 troops--Deng Ai was to take Gansong and Tazhong in order to engage Jiang Wei, and Zhuge Xu was to head toward Wujie and Qiaoyou in order to cut off Jiang Wei's return route. Zhong Hui was in charge of more than 100,000 men, which were divided between going through Xiegu Valley and Luogu Valley.

So Wei was attacking with something like 160,000+. I can't seem to find the numbers for Jiang Wei! Anyone?

Anyway, when Shu surrendered, it had 102,000 armed men. I don't know how much men they lost against the invasion, but it seems like Jiang Wei was outnumbered...?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:30 pm

Lady Wu wrote:So Wei was attacking with something like 160,000+. I can't seem to find the numbers for Jiang Wei! Anyone?

Anyway, when Shu surrendered, it had 102,000 armed men. I don't know how much men they lost against the invasion, but it seems like Jiang Wei was outnumbered...?


I'm just averaging here but the numbers for Jiang Wei would likely be about half or maybe 60-70% of their total given the need to defenses in the south,east and west of Shu.Not to mention commandery forces and also the capital guard.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:21 am

Exar Kun wrote:I'm just averaging here but the numbers for Jiang Wei would likely be about half or maybe 60-70% of their total given the need to defenses in the south,east and west of Shu.Not to mention commandery forces and also the capital guard.

So what would your numbers be?

I'm not sure they placed a heavy guard in the south, but they definitely had a bunch of people in the Baidi area. The 102k is also the post casualties figure as well, so one would have to factor in the number of casualties in that last battle. And the number of defectors.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:45 am

More then 102K? That's a lot for Shu's population.
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Unread postby _Zhuge_Jin_ » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:02 am

From my rememberance, it was that wei not only had better strategies, but also SLIGHTLY outnumbered shu on the main front, due partly to the lack of reinforcing to jiang wei.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:47 am

Lady Wu wrote:So what would your numbers be?

I'm not sure they placed a heavy guard in the south, but they definitely had a bunch of people in the Baidi area. The 102k is also the post casualties figure as well, so one would have to factor in the number of casualties in that last battle. And the number of defectors.


I'm guessing that Shu's main army before the invasion was somewhere around 120k.
Casualties wouldn't account for much more than that as Shu fell because of Liu Shan;s surrender rather than them being battered down to the last man.15% fatalities seems like plenty enough to me.

I think the guard at Baidi would have to be significant enough to offset Wu's own guard at Baqiu.Although Luo Xian only had a thousand men at Yong An,his numbers were reduced because his commander had just went north with most of the garrison.If the entire eastern defense had less than 12-15k I'd be very surprised.Then of course you factor in commandery guards,capital guard and reserves.
The capital guard is likely 15-20k.Anything less than that and they wouldn't have bothered sending out Zhuge Zhan.

I'd put Jiang Wei's army in Hanzhong at around 50-60 thousand.Any more than that at the front and it's starting to be a dangerous proportion of troops in Hanzhong.My estimate is for all of Hanzhong mind,so his own command would be a bit smaller.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:51 am

Shu's population at the time was about 900,000, correct? How can they get 120,000 from this populance? Where would they have the support for such a draft and the reasources to maintain such an army.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:09 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Shu's population at the time was about 900,000, correct? How can they get 120,000 from this populance? Where would they have the support for such a draft and the reasources to maintain such an army.


Yizhou is prosperous,remember?
Plus they receive tribute from the Mangs as well.As for how they can get away with such a high % draft,the people love the Lius,what can I say?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:11 am

Exar Kun wrote:Yizhou is prosperous,remember?

Right. Then there's that quote from Zhuge Liang saying that they're depending solely on their textiles export for supporting the war.

As for how they can get away with such a high % draft,the people love the Lius,what can I say?

I know I shouldn't do this as a mod, but I can't help it:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yes, people loved the Lius so much, that half of Liu Shan's court counselled surrender, and Ma Miao gave up without a fight, so that the Liu house wouldn't suffer from more fighting and Liu Shan could get better treatment after the inevitable Wei take-over.

If Jiang Wei only had 50~60k active troops in Hanzhong, what the heck was he doing attacking Wei time after time, when Wei could spare 60k for just the van? Of course, the usual argument is that Jiang Wei's attacks were necessary to weaken Wei or to keep their hands off Shu, but did he really think that he could have made a difference, a dent even?
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