Virtue

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Virtue

Unread postby Zhao Zilong » Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:48 am

I was thinking about the officers from SGZ and their exploits and after reading many of them (some I have yet to read from Wu) I began thinking of virtue.

Lets start a discussion about which general deserves which virtue and please back it up with evidence from SGZ.

I'll start with the Five Tiger Generals.

Guan Yu- Loyalty (Refusing to submit to Wu's demands for their land back in devotion to Liu Bei's kingdom)
Zhang Fei- Passion (Convincing Liu Bei to wage war with Wu)
Ma Chao- Justice (Continuing his war with Cao Cao for vengeance even though his original assault against Cao Cao led to his family's death)
Huang Zhong-Vigor (Fighting in many battles despite his age)
Zhao Yun-Valor (Fighting in battles often outnumbered)

Any comments on these as well as additions to this thread are welcome.
"Do not bar the gates," said Zhao Zilong. "Have you never heard of my exploit at Dangyang, when I laughed at Cao Cao's many legions? Now that I have an army at my back and generals to help, what is there to fear?"
~SGYY, Chapter 71, Paragraph 119
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:02 am

Lü Meng - Temperance? (He saved all of the money he earned from the kingdom so that it could be reinvested after his death.)
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Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:47 pm

Ma Chao- Justice (Continuing his war with Cao Cao for vengeance even though his original assault against Cao Cao led to his family's death)

why is that related to "Justice?"
Lü Meng - Temperance? (He saved all of the money he earned from the kingdom so that it could be reinvested after his death.)

He saved the most for Sun :P (he took JingZhou which generated $)
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:58 pm

Zhang Fei, passion?

What does that have to do with anything. Liu Bei would have attacked Wu even if Zhang Fei commited suicide.

And your discriptions can apply to most of the tigers. Zhang Fei was loyal, he had valor, he had vigor.



Any way, I think:

Jiang Wei- Loyal(he attacked Wei even though his family was killed and most of his guys disagreed with him just because Zhuge asked him to attack Wei).
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:19 pm

I think Ma Chao is best with Might and Valor, judging by his actions in several wars.

Zhuge Liang - Vision (His plans built up the Kingdom of Shu with Liu Bei, an unthinkable accomplishment given his state years earlier. He was one of the central figures in driving Liu Bei to something greater than a regional warlord. His plans to restore the house of Han in its splendor were flawless, and he was a military genious. The greatest mind in the Three Kingdoms).
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Unread postby Xiahou Mengde88 » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:54 am

Before I say mine, I'm just going to say that these are not the only virtues these people have, but I'm just putting these, because I wouldn't want to be repetitive.

Gan Ning - Bravery and Confidence (One example was when he confidentally said that he would raid He Fei with 100 men, without losing a soldier, which took bravery and confidence, and succeeded.)

Lu Xun - Wisdom Beyond Years (Self Explanatory)

Zhang Fei - Fear Inspiring (Once kept 1,000,000 of Cao Cao's troops from crossing the Chang Ban bridege, by himself, just by shouting at them and flourishing his spear.)

That's all I have right now.
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Unread postby Wizardman » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:30 am

Zhang Liao- Valor, Bravery (fighting with only 800 men at Hefei. Yes, they were sick, but it was the fact that he was ready and willing to fight Sun Quan's army, no matter how big, with 800 men, rather then beating them)

Shen Pei- Loyalty (besides his death sequence, the fact that he stayed with the Yuans despite the fact that they never listened to him can be very loyal)

Ling Tong- Vengeance (SGYY only, but when Gan Ning killed Ling Cao, Ling Tong wanted him dead, even though he knew it would hurt Wu.)
Huang Zhong: Are you calling me old?!
Wei Yan: ...Yes.
Huang Zhong: Liu Bei! I demand you kill him!
Liu Bei: Well it's... true...
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Unread postby _Zhuge_Jin_ » Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:21 am

I do not know if these are virtues (some are more of the opposite really) but here are a few...

Lu Bu- Treachery and Heedlessness(must I say why?)
Dong Zhuo- Gluttany and Cowerdice (once again, must I say why?)
Xiahou Dun- Persistance (C'mon, would you rip out your eye, eat it, then pick up a weapon and fight again?)
Zhuge Liang- Intellegence (well this is self explanitory, but ill explain anyway. he was probably the most intellegent man of the era until sun tsu came around.)
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:58 am

(well this is self explanitory, but ill explain anyway. he was probably the most intellegent man of the era until sun tsu came around.)


:roll:

Sun Tzu was centuries before Zhuge Liang. He wasn't in the TK era at all.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Zhou Yu - The Master » Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:01 am

I don't think Guan Yu's refusal to give in to Wu's demands was loyal, I think it was more obstinacy. The land was Wu's to begin with. In chinese, there's a saying to describe Liu Bei and Jing province - liu bei jie jing zhou, you jie mei huan - which roughly translates into Liu Bei borrowing Jing Province, borrowing without planning to return.

Passion to describe Zhang Fei? Wasn't it more like 'in a constant state of stupor and drunken madness'?

As for Huang Zhong and 'vigor', I think it was more pride - he wanted to prove to others that he wasn't old and useless, and didn't want the younger ones to usurp his place as one of the 5 Tiger Generals.
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