Liu Bei and Yi Ling

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Liu Bei and Yi Ling

Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:48 pm

If Liu Bei wouldn't have made the stupid mistake of lining all of his camps up nicely to be burnt, do you think he had a chance of conquering Wu. Remember that Liu Bei will not be defeated at Yi Ling but will continue to push into Wu. Will Lu Xun be able to force Liu Bei into another mistake down the road or will Liu Bei be able to destory Wu and kill Sun Quan?
"Death is but death, and why are you scared at it?"-Zhang Liao
User avatar
Zhang Liao17
Supreme Commander of Wei Forces
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:17 am
Location: Wei's Defender of He-Fei

Unread postby Lance » Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:58 pm

I truly doubt Liu can conquer all of Wu. However, if he wins at Yi-Ling, he has a good chance of regaining much of Jing, as Lu Xun brought most of his force to Yi-Ling(if not all) and it would take time for Wu to get more troops...enough time for Liu to do some conquering........then again, Wei could decide to attack in Liu's absense from YiZhou.....
Landing the first blow is nice, but only the blow that counts is the last!
Lance
Scholar
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2002 2:43 am
Location: Somewhere

Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:10 am

Lance wrote:I truly doubt Liu can conquer all of Wu. However, if he wins at Yi-Ling, he has a good chance of regaining much of Jing, as Lu Xun brought most of his force to Yi-Ling(if not all) and it would take time for Wu to get more troops...enough time for Liu to do some conquering........then again, Wei could decide to attack in Liu's absense from YiZhou.....


I also believe Liu Bei would have regained Jingzhou and its a possibility he would conquer Wu, but I doubt Wei would get involved in any way. I believe Wei would have let the two war away at each other until one was destroyed then they would attack and defeat the weakened winner. Leaving Wei out of it, I say Liu Bei will push as far as Chaisang beforeLu Xun is reorganized and ready to fight again. Then we have an interesting situation.
"Death is but death, and why are you scared at it?"-Zhang Liao
User avatar
Zhang Liao17
Supreme Commander of Wei Forces
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:17 am
Location: Wei's Defender of He-Fei

Unread postby Stefanos » Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:28 am

During Liu Bei's campaign, Lu Xun made it clear that the Shu army was larger than the Southlands. So I say that he would've made it to... Jiangling, then would've been countered in a battle, similar to Chi Bi(w/o the fire), that would've forced Liu Bei to retreat to regroup. This probably would allow Wu to counterattack the weakened Shu army. Though this could've happened, the chances Sun Quan would attack Shu is out of the question, partially due to the lack of troops left after the battle or the terrain his army would have to go through.
I told you I get paid for every letter.. like abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
User avatar
Stefanos
我的甜孩子
 
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:08 pm
Location: Dont get on the plane.

Unread postby LittleConqueror » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:25 am

If Lu Xun lost, he would pull back until he could force a naval battle. Liu Bei's army would be inexpierenced in the ater and would lose badly. Lu Xun would then go on the offensive, gaining most of Jing before pulling back because of Wei.
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"
User avatar
LittleConqueror
Scholar
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:08 am
Location: Outside your house, yelling taunts at you.

Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:33 am

LittleConqueror wrote:If Lu Xun lost, he would pull back until he could force a naval battle. Liu Bei's army would be inexpierenced in the ater and would lose badly. Lu Xun would then go on the offensive, gaining most of Jing before pulling back because of Wei.


I don't see how Lu Xun could force a naval battle. Maybe he could trick Liu Bei into pursuing him into an awaiting navy, but I highly doubt it. There has to be a road to Jian Ye that he could take without being forced onto the water.
"Death is but death, and why are you scared at it?"-Zhang Liao
User avatar
Zhang Liao17
Supreme Commander of Wei Forces
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:17 am
Location: Wei's Defender of He-Fei

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Aug 25, 2002 9:20 am

By the time of Yi Ling, Liu Bei was old, and Lu Xun was in his prime. I think that is a major factor you need to consider. You are talking as if Wu's only line of defense was Yi Ling, but that's in no way true. Wu had more troops than Shu, that is a fact.
I think Lu Xun is smart enough to know that if Liu Bei pushes through Yi Ling, he can entice Wei to attack Shu's northern borders, forcing Liu to send part of his army back.
I think the way that Lu Xun has handled all of his battles proves him to be an excellent strategist. Historically, Lu Xun also had to deal with traitors in Wu and powerful tribes.
I would say the changes are 60% for Wu to win, and %40 for Shu.
Besides, there is more than one way to trap a lion.
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:09 pm

I'm sure Liu Bei can recapture most of Jingzhou while Lu Xun flees from Yi-Ling. By the time Lu Xun is ready for battle again it will be near Chaisang somewhere and it will be a very deciding battle. Whoever wins there will probaly win the whole war and that battle could go either way. I think its 50/50 as to who will win the war.

As for Wei, I'm certain they will stay out of it. Why attack Shu while they are still in Jinzhou? Let Shu either destroy Wu or be defeated by Wu and then move in. Wei will just sit back until one faction is destroyed and then they'll move in to fight the other.
"Death is but death, and why are you scared at it?"-Zhang Liao
User avatar
Zhang Liao17
Supreme Commander of Wei Forces
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:17 am
Location: Wei's Defender of He-Fei

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:28 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:
As for Wei, I'm certain they will stay out of it. Why attack Shu while they are still in Jinzhou? Let Shu either destroy Wu or be defeated by Wu and then move in. Wei will just sit back until one faction is destroyed and then they'll move in to fight the other.


I can give you countless examples of how easily people are enticed to invade even superior enemies because of a letter or ruse by another general.
Wei's Emperors have been quite greedy, especially Cao Pi, whom I am sure will not pass an opportunity to crush Shu.
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:48 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Zhang Liao17 wrote:
As for Wei, I'm certain they will stay out of it. Why attack Shu while they are still in Jinzhou? Let Shu either destroy Wu or be defeated by Wu and then move in. Wei will just sit back until one faction is destroyed and then they'll move in to fight the other.


I can give you countless examples of how easily people are enticed to invade even superior enemies because of a letter or ruse by another general.
Wei's Emperors have been quite greedy, especially Cao Pi, whom I am sure will not pass an opportunity to crush Shu.


Its tough to say whether Cao Pi's arrogance would get the better of him on this occasion. Jia Xu, Liu Ye and Sima Yi were all there to advise him and they would all certainly agree that to wait would be the better course. From there its a simple matter of whether or not Cao Pi can see the light of great advice.
"Death is but death, and why are you scared at it?"-Zhang Liao
User avatar
Zhang Liao17
Supreme Commander of Wei Forces
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:17 am
Location: Wei's Defender of He-Fei

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved