Xun Yu and his attempts to steal Guo Jia's thunder

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Xun Yu and his attempts to steal Guo Jia's thunder

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:37 pm

Does anyone know what the deal is with Xun Yu and Guo Jia? In Guo Jia's SGZ it talks about how it was both him and Xun Yu giving Cao Cao advice about Yuan Shao with the 10 points etc. However in Xun Yu's SGZ it has no mention of Guo Jia and has Xun Yu taking all the credit. Was Xun Yu trying to steal all the credit?
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:41 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: Quite possibly! But I can't give you a proper historical argument on that one!

ModEdit: Spam warning; please see your PM box ~LW
User avatar
Lord_Zhuge000
Sage
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom

Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:53 am

Well Xun Yu didn't write "Xun Yu's bio" so if anyone was giving him credit it was Chen Shou.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:05 am

Exar Kun wrote:Well Xun Yu didn't write "Xun Yu's bio" so if anyone was giving him credit it was Chen Shou.


Well Chen Shou had to get his information from somewhere so perhaps he got it from some writings of Xun Yu....that's another thing i don't get surely Chen Shou saw that he made a contradiction so why would he do that?
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:11 am

That's doubtful.Why would Xun Yu leave behind a journal for Chen Shou to use?
More likely it came from the account of the meeting.As Minister of Works Cao Cao would likely have had a record of the meeting kept in some form or the other.But Chen Shou contradicts himself more than once.It's a big book.Guy made mistakes.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:23 am

Exar Kun wrote:That's doubtful.Why would Xun Yu leave behind a journal for Chen Shou to use?
More likely it came from the account of the meeting.As Minister of Works Cao Cao would likely have had a record of the meeting kept in some form or the other.But Chen Shou contradicts himself more than once.It's a big book.Guy made mistakes.


If a record was kept then it is worse to make a mistke there. Which one is right? I personally think that the Guo Jia bio is correct since it says that both said it and that makes more sense to me but i cannot be certain.

I understand that the guy makes some mistakes but wow overall does he make alot of mistakes.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:02 am

There has been a mini-discussion here on that topic: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?p=197163#197163

I think what happened was that Luo Guanzhong wanted to steal the thunder from Xun Yu and give it to Guo Jia. I would tend to agree with James' opinion in the other thread, that Luo wanted to make the audience sympathize with Guo Jia rather than Xun Yu.
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
 
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:26 pm

Lady Wu wrote:There has been a mini-discussion here on that topic: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?p=197163#197163

I think what happened was that Luo Guanzhong wanted to steal the thunder from Xun Yu and give it to Guo Jia. I would tend to agree with James' opinion in the other thread, that Luo wanted to make the audience sympathize with Guo Jia rather than Xun Yu.


Then why does Guo Jia's SGZ bio state that it was both Xun Yu and himself that came up with the ideas? Luo Guanzhong did not write SGZ.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:38 am

Chen Shou didn't write the 10 point thing in Guo Jia's bio. As far as Chen Shou was concerned, only Xun Yu gave such an analysis of the situation.

There is, however, a passage from the Fu Zi quoted by Pei Songzhi in his annotations to Guo Jia's SGZ bio. There must be some reason why Chen Shou decided to ignore that passage but rather stuck with Xun Yu as the author of the speech.

The passage from Fu Zi doesn't even mention Xun Yu. It is verbatim as in the novel. The author of the book, Fu Xuan, was a minister of Wei and Jin who died in 278. He was one of the coauthors of the History of Wei, which is quite a problematic historical account (it basically lied about the death of Zhen Ji). I know I shouldn't be judging Fu Xuan based on the accuracy of a work he collaborated on, but if Chen Shou decided to believe otherwise, I'm happy to follow Chen Shou's view.
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
 
Posts: 12837
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:17 am

Lady Wu wrote:Chen Shou didn't write the 10 point thing in Guo Jia's bio. As far as Chen Shou was concerned, only Xun Yu gave such an analysis of the situation.

There is, however, a passage from the Fu Zi quoted by Pei Songzhi in his annotations to Guo Jia's SGZ bio. There must be some reason why Chen Shou decided to ignore that passage but rather stuck with Xun Yu as the author of the speech.

The passage from Fu Zi doesn't even mention Xun Yu. It is verbatim as in the novel. The author of the book, Fu Xuan, was a minister of Wei and Jin who died in 278. He was one of the coauthors of the History of Wei, which is quite a problematic historical account (it basically lied about the death of Zhen Ji). I know I shouldn't be judging Fu Xuan based on the accuracy of a work he collaborated on, but if Chen Shou decided to believe otherwise, I'm happy to follow Chen Shou's view.


Well if it is not in Guo Jia's SGZ is this person lying about this being the SGZ?

http://forums.sanguo-online.com/showthr ... eadid=6166

It says that it is Guo Jia's SGZ and has the following
"Cao said to Xun Yu and Guo Jia, “I want to attack Yuan, but I am afraid I am not his equal.” The two said, “As we know it, Liu Bang was not the equal to Xiang Yu, yet Liu won with his great intelligence. Now, my lord, you have ten advantages versus Yuan’s ten disadvantages. Though Yuan is strong, he is incapable. He uses too many rules and not enough justice, he has inferior administration, he treats his officers inferior to those of his family, and is too suspicious. Though full of ideas he hesitates too much. He listens only to praise, his men abuse each other and all try to flatter him. Furthermore, he cannot tell right from wrong. And finally, he is incapable in military affairs.""

If this is not his real SGZ can you provide me with a link to his real SGZ i would really like to read it.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved