What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:53 am

Lu Kang wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:It is northern Chang Sha not all of Chang Sha not all of it was handed over read more carefully. Wu invaded the part of Chang Sha that wasn't in their control.


Please present the SGZ evidence and the total amount of Chang Sha taken. If you have o SGZ evidence please present some sort of historical analysis that can clearly show that Wu occupied this region (which needs defining).

And if the supposed Lending agreement is only for Jiang Ling then why didn't they invade Jiang Ling? Wu invaded all the southern districts except Jiang Ling so if they only wanted that back then why did they invade Chang Sha, Gui Yang and Ling Ling and not Jiang Ling?


Well that can easily be answered. It would be a military blunder to try and take Jiang Ling first. That was where Guan Yu's army was stationed and even if they did take it they would be asking for an attack from all sides. Shu would be fighting whether they just went for Jiang Ling or whether they took the southern provinces, it was infinately smarter to take the southern province then focus on fighting Shu in Jiang Ling.


THe northern Chang Sha bit like Exar said is in Rafe's writings.

Since Wu was allegidly fighting to take land that they had lend it seems to me that invading land that they weren't asking for and then keeping it seems to make them kind of loook bad.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:53 am

Exar Kun wrote:All I have is what Rafe said in GoS and you know it.Now then,whenever you're ready to attack Rafe's credibility I will be ready to unleash hell.


I respect Dr. de Crespigny's opinion but it is by no strech an automatic truth and neither is everything in his books. While some facts are most clearly truths he also frequently uses sources from Pei Song Zhi's notes and sometimes these are quite controversal sources such as Jiang Biao Zhuan. Rafe de Crespigny kept a great system of endnotes in his books to referrence everything written so that all infomation could be tracked right back to its source. Now it should be no trouble for you to find the actual source, but like I said just because it's there does not mean that it's a fact. You still have the burden to prove that any land switched hands. Perhaps the original source will reveal something and perhaps the origianl source will be reveiled to be Shu propaganda. Now if you would please find some real historical evidence to back it up we can then figure out whether or not it ever happened and if it was even anything worth mentioning.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:43 am

Now I know why I'm having trouble with you.I'm rather disappointed you didn't introduce yourself earlier...TashiCi.You know I had no idea it was you at all.

Anyway as you no doubt already know,since I have spoken to you of this matter on previous occassions,I have tried to determine the source of this information.Rafe leaves no reference to it(as you already know) and my searches have been fruitless.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:50 am

Exar Kun wrote:You know I had no idea it was you at all.


You never do.

Anyway as you no doubt already know,since I have spoken to you of this matter on previous occassions,I have tried to determine the source of this information.Rafe leaves no reference to it(as you already know) and my searches have been fruitless.


Without any historical sources for this piece of information there is absolutely no proof it ever happened (and even with a historical source we don't even know if it is reliable). While it is stated by Rafe de Crespigny, like I mentioned above, without a historical source it's mostly meaningless.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:57 pm

You never do.


Ha!I'm on the lookout for a knight charging at me,not some guy hiding in the bushes waiting to spring forth.

While it is stated by Rafe de Crespigny, like I mentioned above, without a historical source it's mostly meaningless.


That's a very nice way of saying things.But again I'm saying to you,are you saying there that what Rafe says is meaningless and thus,all a lie?
He obviously got it from somewhere,from some analysis.If you're saying that Rafe dreams things and puts it into books like Yu Pu,then say it and let the hand of judgement deal with you Bofu.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:45 pm

Exar Kun wrote:That's a very nice way of saying things.But again I'm saying to you,are you saying there that what Rafe says is meaningless and thus,all a lie?
He obviously got it from somewhere,from some analysis.If you're saying that Rafe dreams things and puts it into books like Yu Pu,then say it and let the hand of judgement deal with you Bofu.


Rafe uses Jiang Biao Zhuan many times and states the writings of as fact all the time across "To Establish Peace" and "Generals of the South". So for all you know, this Chang Sha agreement may be "made up" by Yu Pu. So like I've been saying, without a real historical proof then we have no idea on the validity or that it even exists. Unless you can use a real historical source the point is not valid. I suggest contacting Rafe as about the whereabouts of the source if you truely do intend to use it. Otherwise, let's stick to real historical quotes and facts.

And you should really be aware that Jiang Biao Zhuan is not a book of lies. While it does have a Wu basis you should be able to figure that out blatantly from the context of the title. There are many passages that have been taken for granted and common knowledge that can only be found in JBZ. While it should be noted that it have a Wu subject topic it does have many quite valid historical records within.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:33 pm

Apparantly, Shu's early days were rather poor at keeping records. This is supported because the SGZ bios of generals like Guan Yu and Huang Zhong are so short, despite their fame, rank and so on. While the bios of people who are below them are very detailed. Zhao Yun's is the biggest because he died after Liu Bei did. Ma Chao's is so big because he did not serve Liu Bei from the start. Searching will revial missing detial.s A certian qoute in Liu Bei's SGZ bio leads me to believe that Huang Zhong was quite involved in the Liu Zhang attacks, Guan Yu fought with Yue Jin at Jing while Bei invaded Yi and more.
Perhaps, this info on Changsha was in a source which is rather unavailable in the SGZ bios. Perhaps in ZZTJ.
But I don't think Rafe would make something up, it is possible that his source was less reliable then it is credited for.
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