What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:01 am

An invasion of Xuzhou would be a disaster.Though in the long run it would turn out better for the allied forces I doubt very much that Wu forces can do much of anything in the plains.
Wu looks very impressive on the river but when it's Wuhuan cavalry riding down their throats in Xuzhou I think they'll be whistling a different tune.

Lu Kang wrote:That is just the opinion of the Translator and saying that the lack of a lending term in Shu bios means it didn't happen is a terrible arguement. There is no line that said Jiangling ever switched hands so did Wu still have Jiang Ling? Of course not, just because a Shu bio doesn't mention an event doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact that there is no infomation going either way is quite suspect. If Jiang Ling was just given to them why not just say it? Why cover up for something? Furthermore there are pro-shu histories that record a lending agreement. A lack of infomation doesn't fly because they don't mention a single thing about it at all.


I don't know why you bothered writing this passage since all you have said here is basically "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack."Which it of course is.
You haven't laid any groundwork to fight a case for Wu having lent the land and your only historical thread is saying there is no record of Wu lending Jiangling,which there of course is.

Later Bei went to Jing city to meet with Quan, asking to be able to govern Jingzhou. Lu Su always tried to convince Quan to lend it, so they could together resist Cao Cao. [Xi Zuochi's] Han Jin Chun Qiu says: Lu Fan kept urging [Quan] to keep Bei. Lu Su said, "We cannot do that. Even though General, you possess great martial ability, Cao Cao's power is very strong. Initially when he arrived in Jingzhou, he had not established prestige there. He should have used Bei to help calm the people. Now we can increase Cao Cao's enemies and broaden our party. This is the best plan." Sun Quan agreed and went ahead. Cao Cao heard that Sun Quan had shared land with Liu Bei. He was writing a letter and [due to his shock], his pen dropped onto the floor.


There you go.
Wu has always had a case to request that Jingzhou be transferred back to their control though at the same time Liu Bei could request that they give him back north changsha since he gave that to them and at the same time he could request the return of Jiangxia since it was Liu Qi's and he by right would have inherited it.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:27 am

Changsha was conqeured by Lu Meng in 215 because Liu Bei didn't give Jing back, he didn't give it to them.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:48 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Changsha was conqeured by Lu Meng in 215 because Liu Bei didn't give Jing back, he didn't give it to them.


Before that happened when Sun Quan gave Nanjun to Liu Bei the northern part of Chang Sha was given to Sun Quan by Liu Bei.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:19 am

Exar Kun wrote:I don't know why you bothered writing this passage since all you have said here is basically "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack."Which it of course is.
You haven't laid any groundwork to fight a case for Wu having lent the land and your only historical thread is saying there is no record of Wu lending Jiangling,which there of course is.


You aren't making much sense in responding to my post. What I said was that just because Shu SGZ do not have a lending agreement recorded does not mean that there was no lending agreement. Like I said, there is no record of Jiang Ling shifting hands in Shu bios. Obviously the lack of that doesn't mean that there was not switch and therefore the lack of a lending agreement does mean there was none. I was point out the flaw in his arguement.

There you go.
Wu has always had a case to request that Jingzhou be transferred back to their control though at the same time Liu Bei could request that they give him back north changsha since he gave that to them and at the same time he could request the return of Jiangxia since it was Liu Qi's and he by right would have inherited it.


I've heard you throw that Chang Sha bit around a lot but from what SGZ is that from? Seriously how much really was given? Don't forget that Wu gave Shu the land south of the river, and that certian;ly covered any little bit of land that seems to have no SGZ evidence.
无口为天,有口为吴,君临万邦,天子之都
Historical Post
Lu Kang
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:04 am

Unread postby Exar Kun » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:33 am

You aren't making much sense in responding to my post. What I said was that just because Shu SGZ do not have a lending agreement recorded does not mean that there was no lending agreement. Like I said, there is no record of Jiang Ling shifting hands in Shu bios. Obviously the lack of that doesn't mean that there was not switch and therefore the lack of a lending agreement does mean there was none. I was point out the flaw in his arguement.


The flaw in your argument is also quite clear.
Your comparison between Shu and Jiang Ling and Wu and Jingzhou aren't even similar.Wu bios detail the Jiang Ling transfer though specific details are never recorded.However neither side records a lending agreement for all of Jingzhou.
It's the difference between a fact that exists and one you wish existed.

I've heard you throw that Chang Sha bit around a lot but from what SGZ is that from? Seriously how much really was given? Don't forget that Wu gave Shu the land south of the river, and that certian;ly covered any little bit of land that seems to have no SGZ evidence.


I got that info from Generals of the South.If you're thinking about attacking it based on credibility then you're worse off than I thought.Attack a fact from a de Crespigny book and you'll deserve what you get.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:59 am

Exar Kun wrote:The flaw in your argument is also quite clear.
Your comparison between Shu and Jiang Ling and Wu and Jingzhou aren't even similar.Wu bios detail the Jiang Ling transfer though specific details are never recorded.However neither side records a lending agreement for all of Jingzhou.
It's the difference between a fact that exists and one you wish existed.


What are you on? I'm only talking about Jiang Ling!

I got that info from Generals of the South.If you're thinking about attacking it based on credibility then you're worse off than I thought.Attack a fact from a de Crespigny book and you'll deserve what you get.


Ok, so it's a Rafe quote. Now please answer the question I asked, what SGZ did the info originally come from and how much of Chang Zha exactly was given?
Last edited by Lu Kang on Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
无口为天,有口为吴,君临万邦,天子之都
Historical Post
Lu Kang
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:04 am

Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:04 am

How can Liu Bei give Changsha and LuMeng invade it 5 years later.
Why would Wu invade their own territory?
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
PrimeMinister Bu Zhi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:22 pm
Location: Jiao

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:33 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:How can Liu Bei give Changsha and LuMeng invade it 5 years later.
Why would Wu invade their own territory?


It is northern Chang Sha not all of Chang Sha not all of it was handed over read more carefully. Wu invaded the part of Chang Sha that wasn't in their control.

And if the supposed Lending agreement is only for Jiang Ling then why didn't they invade Jiang Ling? Wu invaded all the southern districts except Jiang Ling so if they only wanted that back then why did they invade Chang Sha, Gui Yang and Ling Ling and not Jiang Ling?
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:09 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:It is northern Chang Sha not all of Chang Sha not all of it was handed over read more carefully. Wu invaded the part of Chang Sha that wasn't in their control.


Please present the SGZ evidence and the total amount of Chang Sha taken. If you have o SGZ evidence please present some sort of historical analysis that can clearly show that Wu occupied this region (which needs defining).

And if the supposed Lending agreement is only for Jiang Ling then why didn't they invade Jiang Ling? Wu invaded all the southern districts except Jiang Ling so if they only wanted that back then why did they invade Chang Sha, Gui Yang and Ling Ling and not Jiang Ling?


Well that can easily be answered. It would be a military blunder to try and take Jiang Ling first. That was where Guan Yu's army was stationed and even if they did take it they would be asking for an attack from all sides. Shu would be fighting whether they just went for Jiang Ling or whether they took the southern provinces, it was infinately smarter to take the southern province then focus on fighting Shu in Jiang Ling.
无口为天,有口为吴,君临万邦,天子之都
Historical Post
Lu Kang
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:04 am

Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:26 am

All I have is what Rafe said in GoS and you know it.Now then,whenever you're ready to attack Rafe's credibility I will be ready to unleash hell.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3345
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved