What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

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What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:57 pm

There are infinite possibilities! Personally I would be interested in how long the Liu-Sun alliance would have lasted.
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Re: What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:41 pm

Lord_Zhuge000 wrote:There are infinite possibilities! Personally I would be interested in how long the Liu-Sun alliance would have lasted.


Like you said there are many possiblities. The most favorable one would be since Wei was in such chaos with Guan Yu's assult they might not have been able to counter Sun Quan's attack properly. If Sun Quan had managed to take Xu and even if history repeated itself and Guan Yu was defeated by Xu Huang and retreated to Jiang Ling Cao Cao would have found it quite hard to retake Xu while making sure that Guan Yu wouldn't try again or Liu Bei might just attack from Yi also causing him to divide his troops.

Personally i think that when Lu Meng told Sun Quan that Xu would be too hard to hold and that they should go after Jing instead was more because he already had his mind set on taking Jing and the fact that they had the opportunity for an easier gain.
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Re: What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:45 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Personally i think that when Lu Meng told Sun Quan that Xu would be too hard to hold and that they should go after Jing instead was more because he already had his mind set on taking Jing and the fact that they had the opportunity for an easier gain.


Yes, Quan and Meng were so angry with Kongming for stealing Jing, they lost sight of the bigger picture for a while.

But if Wu takes Xu, Cao Cao would have to either divide his army or return to the capital. Guan Yu would have siezed Fan, and Cao Cao would have nowhere below the river and the threat from Xu. Would have been very hard to get out of that one!
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Re: What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:30 pm

Lord_Zhuge000 wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Personally i think that when Lu Meng told Sun Quan that Xu would be too hard to hold and that they should go after Jing instead was more because he already had his mind set on taking Jing and the fact that they had the opportunity for an easier gain.


Yes, Quan and Meng were so angry with Kongming for stealing Jing, they lost sight of the bigger picture for a while.

But if Wu takes Xu, Cao Cao would have to either divide his army or return to the capital. Guan Yu would have siezed Fan, and Cao Cao would have nowhere below the river and the threat from Xu. Would have been very hard to get out of that one!


It is funny thing about Jing because if you look at page 8 of Liu Bei's SGZ it says in the notes that in Chen Shou's orignal text there is nothing stated about a lending agreement and that the lending agreement was made up by Wu historians to make Lu Su look better.

Yeah so if Wu was less greedy then Wu and Shu-Han could have defeated Cao Cao. While this necesarily might not have happened it was probably the best chance for Wei to be taken down.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:01 pm

Lu Meng's SGZ bio says why Xuzhou won't work. Read it and then decide.

And Wu didn't lend it? They gave Liu Bei Jiangling. He should at least have given it back Wu expansionists agreed that before fighting Cao Cao, more land must be taken. Seems fair, since Liu Bei took Yizhou, he might as well have given back Jing.

Wheater or not Wu lended it, it makes sense that Bei should give it back.
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:49 pm

Lu Meng assumed that Wu would also have to defend against Guan Yu. Had the alliance been stronger, the principal might of Wu could have been arrayed in Xu. Wei couldn't respond with anything significant if Ma Chao was marching on Chang An and Guan Yu had taken Xiangyang and threatened the capital.

With regards to the Jiangling agreement, LiuBeiwasGreat brought up an interesting point, that if it proves true no argument exists with regards to Wu loaning out parts of Jing and wanting them back. Either way, Sun Quan could not expect to get Shu to give up Jiangling (and probably knew Shu wouldn't), Guan Yu's home base for his war against Xu Huang. Wu should have requested return after Guan Yu had taken Xiangyang.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:39 pm

Guan Yu would not take Xiangyang either way. Xu Huang beat him, not Sun Quan.

And Lu Meng didn't take Guan Yu into much significance. First off, even though Xuzhou can be taken, it's easier for Wei to invade it then for Wu to reinforce it. This means Wei can take it rather easily. Same goes for Hanzhong, thats why Wei was unable to hold it. The only way for Wu to attack Wei was from Yangzhou to Shouchun. Everything else, Wu alreay tried and it failed. Though Shouchun did too, if they take it, they can hold it a lot easier. Wu already tried to go from Huaiyin twice. They tried to go from Taiwan. They tried to go from Liadong. The only way is to take Shouchun and expand from there.
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Re: What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:34 am

It is funny thing about Jing because if you look at page 8 of Liu Bei's SGZ it says in the notes that in Chen Shou's orignal text there is nothing stated about a lending agreement and that the lending agreement was made up by Wu historians to make Lu Su look better.

Yeah so if Wu was less greedy then Wu and Shu-Han could have defeated Cao Cao. While this necesarily might not have happened it was probably the best chance for Wei to be taken down.


That is just the opinion of the Translator and saying that the lack of a lending term in Shu bios means it didn't happen is a terrible arguement. There is no line that said Jiangling ever switched hands so did Wu still have Jiang Ling? Of course not, just because a Shu bio doesn't mention an event doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact that there is no infomation going either way is quite suspect. If Jiang Ling was just given to them why not just say it? Why cover up for something? Furthermore there are pro-shu histories that record a lending agreement. A lack of infomation doesn't fly because they don't mention a single thing about it at all.

I don't think that an attack on Xu would be fruitful. Like Lu Meng said, it would be very hard to hold. That's not even looking at the fact that Wu did not have the necesary manpower to maintain a longterm defence against Wei. On top of that Shu had tricked Sun Quan about Yizhou and betrayed Liu Zhang. I don't think Sun Quan could sleep safely with Liu Bei as his "Ally". Jing was Wu's only real hope for survival.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:38 am

Agreed. Invasion into Fan can be helpfull. If Wu took Jing, then it would have access to Louyang and Xuchang. Jing is far easier to take then territory after Shouchun(shouchun itself is hard to take).

BTW, the Jing I'm talking about is the Jing owned by Wei(Nanyang and such).
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Re: What if Sun Quan attacked Xu instead of Fan?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:00 am

Lu Kang wrote:
It is funny thing about Jing because if you look at page 8 of Liu Bei's SGZ it says in the notes that in Chen Shou's orignal text there is nothing stated about a lending agreement and that the lending agreement was made up by Wu historians to make Lu Su look better.

Yeah so if Wu was less greedy then Wu and Shu-Han could have defeated Cao Cao. While this necesarily might not have happened it was probably the best chance for Wei to be taken down.


That is just the opinion of the Translator and saying that the lack of a lending term in Shu bios means it didn't happen is a terrible arguement. There is no line that said Jiangling ever switched hands so did Wu still have Jiang Ling? Of course not, just because a Shu bio doesn't mention an event doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact that there is no infomation going either way is quite suspect. If Jiang Ling was just given to them why not just say it? Why cover up for something? Furthermore there are pro-shu histories that record a lending agreement. A lack of infomation doesn't fly because they don't mention a single thing about it at all.

I don't think that an attack on Xu would be fruitful. Like Lu Meng said, it would be very hard to hold. That's not even looking at the fact that Wu did not have the necesary manpower to maintain a longterm defence against Wei. On top of that Shu had tricked Sun Quan about Yizhou and betrayed Liu Zhang. I don't think Sun Quan could sleep safely with Liu Bei as his "Ally". Jing was Wu's only real hope for survival.


It is not the opinion of the translator look at the line it is Rafe de Crespingny and other historians. They say that in the orginal text there is metion of a lending agreement and the word lending was added later. I am not saying that since it is not mentioned that there is no lending agreement i am saying that historians have decided that the word was not their originally and if the word lending was not there before but is added later by another source then that puts the lending agreement in doubt. Also remember that most of the later history written is based upon previous histories since access to early records as time goes on becomes harder to get.

This means that SGZ in it's orginal form never mentions a lending agreement and only Jiang Biao Zhuan uses the word lending and that word was incorperated in later copies of SGZ.

Don't talk about Liu Bei being a bad ally in defense of Sun Quan, Sun Quan lied and betrayed both Shu-Han and Wei both on several occations. Sun Quan made two unprovoked invasions against Liu Bei and several unprovoked attacks on Wei after allying with them.

Remember Lu Meng was dead set on attacking Jing at this point. Him saying that Xu was not a relyable target is based upon the fact that he believed that Guan Yu was waiting for the right moment to invade. Lu Meng was afraid of Guan Yu so he believed that he had to be nutralized first.

From Lu Meng's SGZ
"The only reason why Guan Yu had not tried marching east is because of my Liege’s brilliance and because of me and other generals’ being still alive. Once we are gone, he will easily take over our land by a simple show of might.” Sun Quan agreed greatly with him."

To show Lu Meng's worry about Guan Yu we look at Lu Xun's SGZ
"“Guan Yu’s known for his military prowess,” replied Lü Meng, “and has been a difficult enemy. Since he has been in charge of Jing Province (荊州), he has been benevolent towards the people. Furthermore, morale is high on his side due to his recent victories. It may not be so easy to defeat him.”"

Lu Meng's obsesion with Guan Yu was the reason why he was so against taking Xu. If he was more rational he would have realized that Guan Yu's desire to take the north could be used as a shield against Cao Cao's army. At the time Guan Yu was winning in the fight there was little reason to think that he would be defeated by Xu Huang this was the perfect time to take Xu. Cao Cao was too busy fighting Guan Yu to mobalize a large strike force to take back Xu.

Oh and last thing it was technicly Liu Zhang who struck at Liu Bei first so technicly Liu Bei was defending himself against an agressor. Just thought i would remind people of that.
Last edited by LiuBeiwasGreat on Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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