Sun Quan and his strategists

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Sun Quan and his strategists

Unread postby Highonpawns » Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:37 pm

which stratigist was quan's favorite (should this be Q be thread-a-tized)?

I think the other rulers were ovbious, but sun quan is different

ModEdit--Thread-a-tized as requested! ~LW
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Unread postby Jiangji » Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:58 pm

Highonpawns wrote:which stratigist was quan's favorite (should this be Q be thread-a-tized)?

I think the other rulers were ovbious, but sun quan is different


I think Lu Meng was Sun Quan favourite strategist.
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Unread postby Morg » Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:13 am

Highonpawns wrote:which stratigist was quan's favorite

Jianqji is correct in saying that Lu Meng seemed to have been Quan's favourite strategist. I can't remember the quote exactly but Quan once talked about how Zhou Yu repelled Cao Cao at Chi Bi and was the greatest mind in Wu until his death. Then Lu Su surpassed him, but then Lu Meng had surpassed them both.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:53 pm

I always thought that Sun Quan liked Zhou Yu the best, he might have recongnized that Lu Meng achieved more militarily but still for personal like i believe he liked Zhou Yu more.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:44 pm

Here's what A-Quan thinks about his top strategists:

Lu Meng's SGZ biography wrote:Once Sun Quan was having a discussion with Lu Xun about Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Lü Meng. Sun Quan said, “Gongjin was bold and dashing, and both in courage and intelligence was not equaled by any other. Thus he defeated Mengde and expanded into Jinghzou. His achievements are lofty and difficult to match—but you have now matched them. In the past, Gongjin invited Zijing to come to the east and introduced him to me. When I first talked to him at a banquet, he already outlined for me the way to build an empire. This was one great thing about him. Later, when Mengde became emboldened by his capturing Liu Zong, and boasted that he leading hundreds of thousands of naval and infantry troops here, I invited all the generals to inquire into their opinion, but no one was able to draw up a plan. However, when Zibu [Zhang Zhao] and Wenbiao [Qin Song??] both proposed that we should send an emissary and respectfully invite [Cao Cao] in, Zijing immediately argued against it, and urged me to call Gongjin here quickly and give him control over the forces in order to repel [Cao Cao]. This was the second great thing about him [Lu Su]. His strategies were miles better than those of Zhang [Yi] and Su [Qin] (IV). Although he later persuaded me to lend land to Xuande, which was a shortcoming of his, it’s not enough to overshadow the two great points about him. The Duke of Zhou (V) said to never require anyone to completely possess all strengths and abilities, and so I forget about his shortcomings and value his strengths, often comparing him to Deng Yu (VI). Then, there’s Ziming—when he was younger, I had thought that he was only someone who did not fear extreme hardships and who was determined and courageous. However, when he was older, he applied himself to studying, and became quite knowledgeable. His plans and tactics were uncommonly excellent and were second only to those of Gongjin’s. It’s just in speech and style that he was unable to match Gongjin. In his planning to capture Guan Yu, he was better than Zijing. Zijing had responded to my letter once, ‘At the beginning of empire-building, there are always those whom one wants to get rid of. Guan Yu is not of concern.’ This is simply Zijing being unable to do the task and saying bold things to cover himself. I forgive him that and was not harsh on him. In his commanding troops, though, he had never missed anything in building camps, and his men would never violate his orders, and were of such good discipline that they wouldn’t pick up lost items by the roadside. The way [Lu Su] did things was certainly also commendable.”
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:31 pm

Does anyone else think Sun Quan judged Lu Su a little too harshly? Perhaps Lu Su wanted to keep friendly with Liu Bei as part of a plan, or maybe he simply was like Zhuge Liang and wanted to deal with Wei first and foremost. He seemed to make some unfair assumptions and though he still respected Lu Su highly, I feel he did not value him highly enough.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:58 pm

Lu Su ruined the two kingdoms plan. Though I don't think he knew Liu Bei would not give back Jing. Lu Su giving Jing is good enough reason for Quan(to not regard him as high as the others).
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:49 pm

I don't want to get into a discussion of the Two Kingdoms vs. Three Kingdoms, etc., but since neither plan was carried out to the finish, how can anyone judge Lu Su based on his apparent dislike of the Two Kingdoms plan? Perhaps he was right in opposing it and encouraging a strong friendship with Liu Bei, as Kongming did for Wu.

Lu Su only gave Liu Bei the Jiang Ling area (by Sun Quan's consent), a transition that ensured that any Wei invasions of Jing would be met by Liu Bei's forces, and not by those of Wu, and one that wasn't much of a territorial sacrifice. Wu could now focus its military efforts in the east at Hefei and Guangling.

To be honest, I had never really cared much about Lu Su previously, but this information has raised my interest in him. He was clearly a good leader and a wise strategist
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Unread postby Freefall » Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:16 pm

Lu Su ruined the two kingdoms plan.


It was Zhou Yu's plan. If anyone/anything ruined it, it was Zhou Yu death(not Zhou Yu himself). After he died, Wu abandon this plan all together. So it is not Lu Su fault that Wu did not get 1/2 of China. You can't ruin something if it is not there to be ruin.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:18 pm

He kinda did, Sun Yu and Gan Ning where still alive and both were generals who planned advance. Lu Su replaced Zhou Yu, that means he should have went along and attacked Yizhou. Even ignoring that, giving Liu Bei Jing is something I could never even have considered.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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