Guo Jia and Cao Cao's biggest mistake...

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Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:39 am

If Cao Cao decides to go with Xun Yu's idea to kill Liu Bei so as to remove any future threat, then what happens to Cao Cao?

Killing an imperial kinsman would not have been tolerated by the court, regional leaders, etc. Liu Bei was no great threat at the time, and probably was more of a help in distracting Lu Bu.

Lu Bu, Ma Teng, Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu were a far greater threat as each had aspirations to take the capital, and Cao Cao needed his (at that time) prestige and respect.

But if Cao Cao had killed Liu Bei then Guan Yu would not have killed Yan Liang, then Yuan Shao may have pushed Cao Cao back to Xuchang and taken control of it.

Guo Jia showed more insight than Xun Yu in his advice.
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Unread postby _Zhuge_Jin_ » Sat Sep 04, 2004 1:56 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Well, with hindsight, of course it's easy to say that Xun Yu was right and Liu Bei should have been killed there and then.

However, considering the situation Cao Cao was in at that time, I would have to say that he made the right choice. Though Cao did have quite a bit of prestige and power (having kidnapped Emperor Xian), it was still uncertain whether he or Yuan Shao would be the ultimate victor. Lu Bu was still at large. Cao needed all possible popular support to legitimize his position, and killing an imperial relative wouldn't do. Liu Bei was relatively harmless, too, since he had only a few supporters and no land base.

If Cao Cao did have Liu Bei killed, Guan and Zhang might either leave or commit suicide or something. Guan Yu wouldn't be there to kill Yan Liang/Wen Chou (we're going by novel, right?). Knowing what Cao Cao do with imperial cousins would probably strengthen Liu Biao's resolve to repel him, and Liu Zong would probably put up a fight instead of surrendering. Since Liu Biao left quite a bit of a navy behind, Cao's forces would receive a big blow, stalling the southern campaign. Sun Quan would have had more time to mobilize and put up a staunch defence along the River.

I say Guo Jia was right.


Good point, but there were other chances later on after xiao pei and before guan du and in reality, cao could have used yuan shao with his weak leadership in the way that he used liu bei with his strong charisma. Chi bi would not have happened and a whole different 3 kingdoms era would have occured, but I believe that cao and his sons would have conquered the land by 240 if liu bei wasnt there for the northern campaigns and zhuge was not a threat to ssuma. Cao would have controlled much of the land once controlled by liu zhang and zhang lu and possibly went north and captured liangzhu...the possibilities were endless if liu bei was dead.
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Unread postby Mighty Lu Bu » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:20 pm

no Liu Bei, no Shu Han, and there won't be the Romance of Three Kingdoms tales from centuries ago. :roll:

but well, at the other side, I also regret that Cao Cao didn't slain that shoe maker (read: Liu Bei), but instead let him gain tremendous power and then post a huge serious threat to Wei's supremacy.

and some posts on previous pages said that, then Guan Yu won't be on Guan Du to help Cao Cao to slain Yan Liang and Wen Chou, so what ?! just send 'em packing back to their camp with arrows. or tell all generals, Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Xu Chu, Xiahou Dun, Li Dian, etc... go and kills those two.

btw i think that Liu Bei was kind of hypocrites, he did helped by Lu Bu when he was going to be attacked by Yuan Shu, but at the end, he persuades Cao Cao to execute the Mighty Lu Bu (ARGHH !! DAMN LIU BEI !!). and the Wu was kind enough to "borrow" him piece of their land, and just because of that land, it costs Zhou Yu's life (i forgot the name of that place: "....zhou"), but Liu Bei didn't want to give that piece of land back to the Wu, whether they'd got Liu Zhang surrendered and took Cheng Du. so this is what he called "virtue" ?! even when Zhuge Jin persuades Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu to bring back their piece of land, they said "It's part of the Han Dynasty, not belongs to Wu !!"... whatta hypocrite....
Can anybody provides me with a decent challenge ?!
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Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:55 pm

Mighty Lu Bu wrote:...but at the end, he persuades Cao Cao to execute the Mighty Lu Bu (ARGHH !! DAMN LIU BEI !!).


"The Mighty Lu Bu"? I really think Dynasty Warriors exagerates his might. He was brave in the SGYY, but really, what did he actually achieve?

He simply betrayed mentors when it suited him, and in my opinion, didn't make any notable achievement on the field of battle.
Last edited by Lord_Zhuge000 on Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:14 pm

Lord_Zhuge000 wrote:
Mighty Lu Bu wrote:...but at the end, he persuades Cao Cao to execute the Mighty Lu Bu (ARGHH !! DAMN LIU BEI !!). quote]

"The Mighty Lu Bu"? I really think Dynasty Warriors exagerates his might. He was brave in the SGYY, but really, what did he actually achieve?

He simply betrayed mentors when it suited him, and in my opinion, didn't make any notable achievement on the field of battle.


Lu Bu was quite decent with quite a few military victories to his name. The only thing he really failed at was defeating Cao Cao and how many people really fought and won against Cao Cao. Heck Liu Bei didn't start winning against Cao Cao until he got a large piece of land and Sun Quan only won defensive battles.

Lu Bu really gets a bad rap, GO LU BU!!!!!
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Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:25 pm

OK, in my opinion, there are three people in the Three Kingdoms era who were villains, and here they are:

1) Lu Bu - although not as much so as the other two, he killed Ding Yuan for a horse (unforgivable) and Dong Zhuo. Killing Dong Zhuo wouldn't be bad, but why did he do it? For the sake of Diao Chan!

2) Dong Zhuo - clear villain here, not much explaining to do.

3) Cao Cao - the worst of the lot, by a very long way. Next time you read SGYY count how many inhumain things Cao Cao does, and how many worthy people he kills without reason. Here are some off the top of my head:

Xun Yu
Xun You
Yang Xiu
Tao Qian (attempted)
Empress Fu

Back on to the subject, Lu Bu was hardly "the ultimate warrior".
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Unread postby _Zhuge_Jin_ » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:51 am

Liu Bei happens to be my favorite leader, and I theink lu bu is about par overall with lu meng or zhang liao. Liu bei had a big reason to kill lu bu... it is called betrayal. lu bu betrayed liu bei , who he called his "brother", by overtaking his position and forcing bei to serve him. hardly no reason... back on topic...


it would have been advantagious for cao to eliminate bei, but it is impossible to just discard the possibility of guan yu's influence being taken away, but with bei gone, there never had to be a guan du because cao could've aimed southwest, towards liu biao and later liu zhang, like liu bei did. also, there would not be a chi bi, so wei would have been even stronger, and it is my conclusion, that without liu bei, cao would have united china.
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Unread postby Ts'ao Jian » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:47 am

Just my take on the original question real quick.

I believe that Guo Jia was correct in his advice and that Cao Cao was correct in following it. I believe that Cao Cao would have been successful with Liu Bei alive if not for one important factor- Guo Jia's untimely (for Wei, or rather the Cao faction) death. Had Guo Jia been alive, he would have been able to advise Cao Cao in how to successfully handle Liu Bei and could have been able to avoid such setbacks as Chi Bi. My impression from the book was that he would have been a match for Pang Tong, and, quite possibly, even Kongming. Had Guo Jia been able to continue his advice to Cao Cao, Xun Yu's theory would have been proved wrong.
Now heroes are men who cherish lofty designs in their bosoms and have plans to achieve them; they have all-embracing schemes, and the whole world is at their mercy. -Ts'ao Ts'ao

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Unread postby Mighty Lu Bu » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:03 pm

Lord_Zhuge000 wrote:3) Cao Cao - the worst of the lot, by a very long way. Next time you read SGYY count how many inhumain things Cao Cao does, and how many worthy people he kills without reason. Here are some off the top of my head:

Xun Yu
Xun You
Yang Xiu
Tao Qian (attempted)
Empress Fu

Back on to the subject, Lu Bu was hardly "the ultimate warrior".


because Xun Yu and Xun You seems not too pleased when they heard that Cao Cao was goin' to be promoted to a higher rank on the Han government.

but hey, thanks to him, without his efforts, the land were going to be divided into more than Three Kingdoms, remember Yuan Shu, Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, Lu Bu.

and Empress Fu and Yang Xiu, they should thanks to the Heaven that their government ruled by Cao Cao, not by Dong Zhuo or foolish Yuan Shao. and Cao Cao did lots of efforts in unifying the land.

he also respects his generals and strategists, unlike Yuan Shao.... :roll: that's why his men are all loyal to him, even Zhang Liao, who was served Lu Bu, become very loyal to Cao Cao, because what ? Cao Cao treated him well and respects him.

Hero of Chaos.... 8-)
Can anybody provides me with a decent challenge ?!
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Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:29 pm

What is this? A supporter of Lu Bu and Cao Cao?

"Hero of Chaos" i.e. will stop at nothing to achieve his ambition.
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