Guo Jia and Cao Cao's biggest mistake...

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Guo Jia and Cao Cao's biggest mistake...

Unread postby _Zhuge_Jin_ » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:27 am

Guo Jia was in favor of keeping Liu Bei alive, while Xun Yu wanted Liu Bei killed to prevent future trouble, in the end Cao went with Guo Jia and Bei was spared, only to be a major threat later in the era, if he was eliminated then and there, wei might of succeded in their attempt to conquer and unify China. What are your thoughts?
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:00 am

I agree, if Liu Bei died, Wei would succeed. Unless of course Wu wins Chibi alone, this is possible and could be followed up with a 2k strategy and Wu may win, but let's look before Chibi. Liu Bei rebelled agianst Cao Cao and caused some troubles in Guandu and against Liu Biao. Withou him, he may have done things a year or two faster and succeeded in beating Wu at Chibi.
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Unread postby Marx!_II » Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:19 am

There might not even be a Chi Bi, depending on how much territory and officers Cao Cao took between Liu Bei's death and then.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:33 am

Well, with hindsight, of course it's easy to say that Xun Yu was right and Liu Bei should have been killed there and then.

However, considering the situation Cao Cao was in at that time, I would have to say that he made the right choice. Though Cao did have quite a bit of prestige and power (having kidnapped Emperor Xian), it was still uncertain whether he or Yuan Shao would be the ultimate victor. Lu Bu was still at large. Cao needed all possible popular support to legitimize his position, and killing an imperial relative wouldn't do. Liu Bei was relatively harmless, too, since he had only a few supporters and no land base.

If Cao Cao did have Liu Bei killed, Guan and Zhang might either leave or commit suicide or something. Guan Yu wouldn't be there to kill Yan Liang/Wen Chou (we're going by novel, right?). Knowing what Cao Cao do with imperial cousins would probably strengthen Liu Biao's resolve to repel him, and Liu Zong would probably put up a fight instead of surrendering. Since Liu Biao left quite a bit of a navy behind, Cao's forces would receive a big blow, stalling the southern campaign. Sun Quan would have had more time to mobilize and put up a staunch defence along the River.

I say Guo Jia was right.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:06 am

Xun Yu was right but at the time Liu Bei was no threat. Liu Bei had done nothing that would constitute a threat to Cao Cao's power and killing Liu Bei would have been pointless at the time. Besides did Cao Cao not take a certain liking to Liu Bei (as friends/generals no strange ideas)? I think the verdict was still out then as to whether Liu Bei was truly an ambitous person.

Just a side question in the SGYY it mentions how popular Liu Bei is with the people and thus wrong to kill him. Any evidence historically to validate that Bei was popular?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:14 am

Lady Wu is right--Liu Bei had to be spared.

I don't think it makes too much sense to say that if Cao Cao had killed Liu Bei, Wei would have had a better chance against Wu / Liu Zhang. If Cao Cao had killed Liu Bei, chances are there wouldn't have been a Wei to begin with. Cao Cao would have made a few enemies with such an action, and his progress up until the establishment of Wei could have been severely hampered.
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Unread postby Liu Pi » Mon Aug 30, 2004 12:11 pm

Besides if Cao Cao had gone with Xun Yu and killed Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei would have gone on a rampage and kill a few hundred Wei officers. :wink:
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:25 pm

If it's going by SGZ, they would just make a bandit group or something. If 2 guys can kill hundreds of Wei officers, it's amazing how they didn't do that when they fought Cao Cao at Xuchang.
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Unread postby Liu Pi » Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:34 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:If it's going by SGZ, they would just make a bandit group or something. If 2 guys can kill hundreds of Wei officers, it's amazing how they didn't do that when they fought Cao Cao at Xuchang.


Ok i didn't mean that seriously.
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Unread postby melee » Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:19 am

feng xiao was right? ho ho ho...
:lol: he also had a guess about guan yu's surrender and yan liang,wen chou killed?
i don't think so,
you said cao cao and guo jia were right when they did not kill liu bei because liu bei had heroic fame so people would not support wei force anymore?do you think all people are fool?_no,they would also know cao cao did it because liu bei was a great threat.
and what did happen after cao cao had killed yang xiu and someone else?the fact that talents still came and supported wei.

actually,like feng xiao said after,if cao cao didn't kill liu bei,he still shouldn't let liu bei escape...guo jia's mistake is he didn't talk to cao cao "you shouldn't let liu bei escape" before that happened instead of he only said "you shouldn't kill liu bei" and nothing more...
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