The Qiang rebellion of 185 and Ma Chao's supposed folly.

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Unread postby Danktrees » Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:12 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:I am attacking Ma Chao because the topic is about him. And how did Cao Cao rebel? The Han was weak and I think he was right to usurp it, it was done for the people. I'd rather live in Wei then later Han. Sun Quan betrayed Liu Bei because Bei never gave him Jingzhou back, which Lu Su loaned to him.


how can lu su loan liu bei something that he or wu never owned at that point? also sun quan and liu bei formed the alliance to take care of cao cao. with shu attacking from han zhong in the west and guan yu from jingzhou, all sun quan had to do was attack from the south and wei would have been seriously messed up. but instead, he chose to attack liu bei. i mean, i'm a shuist but i dont blame sun quan for doing it. the alliance is only useful if cao cao is attacking them, but since he was not, there was no reason for the alliance to be there which is why i find sun quan's attack on liu bei to be justified. what i do have a problem with tho is the fact that people keep saying sun quan did it solely because liu bei never gave it back to him. cuz first of all, liu bei contributed in the battle against cao cao at chi bi. this cannot be debated as cao cao's own bio says liu bei was the one who burned out a portion of his fleet. so it is justified that liu bei should get some land. secondly, wu never owned jingzhou and therefore cannot loan it to liu bei.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:22 am

Off topic.

Anyway:

how can lu su loan liu bei something that he or wu never owned at that point?


In history, Zhou Yu took Nanjun and Yiling, not like in the novel where Zhao Yun sneaks up on them.

cuz first of all, liu bei contributed in the battle against cao cao at chi bi. this cannot be debated as cao cao's own bio says liu bei was the one who burned out a portion of his fleet.


Cao Cao's SGZ bio contridicts every bio on Chi Bi, even Wei bios.

so it is justified that liu bei should get some land


He did get some land, but why should he also get Wu's land, which they took?

secondly, wu never owned jingzhou and therefore cannot loan it to liu bei.


Yes they did, in 210, Zhou Yu took Jing, once agian I must say this.
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:11 pm

Exar Kun wrote:Cao Cao's SGZ has been availible for a long time now.Aside from the lnik Bu Zhi gave which is Lucy Zhang's translation there is another that is without commentaries by Jack Yuan here.

I'll admit defeat here - I underestimated the Wei Army in the war at Tong Pass. From the bio, it seems like both sides did fairly well for themselves. Wei seemed to have initial trouble against Ma Chao, but ended up faring evenly with him in their own right, as Ma Chao pressed hard and harassed the Wei forces constantly and effectively, but Wei countered with good attacks of their own and good ploys. Though Cao Cao's shrugging off of the boat ambush event shocked me - if it weren't for Xu Zhu, Cao Cao would most certainly be the unfortunate victim of Qiang arrows.

Even if Shu had more troops in Jingzhou,Wei had more as well.Behind Xu Huang was Zhang Liao as I said and behind him,Cao Cao.Liu Bei cannot defeat Cao Cao in the field.
Hanzhong,while a great victory for Shu also had them possessing many advantages.They outnumbered Wei both in soldiers and officers and they were also attacking along the easier route as Hanzhong is naturally accessible via Yizhou.Defeating Zhang He and Xiahou Yuan is a great thing but they are gnats compared to Cao Cao himself.


At Tong Pass Cao Cao didn't fare too well until Xiahou Yuan showed up. Cao also got personally massacred at Han Zhong (partly by Ma Chao, as Cao Zhang saved his father by repelling the pursuing forces led by Wu Lan, a subordinate of Chao). If Shu outnumbered Wei's greatest western army in Han Zhong, why is it impossible to fare evenly in terms of resources with them again?

After that first minor skirmish,he got beatn all the time.That's complete failure,have no doubt.He had nothing to show for his efforts.


We don't really know if the first was a minor skirmish or an all-out battle, so lets not assume anything. All we know is that Cao lost, but had plenty of strength intact. And even by the Wei SGZ's, Ma Chao seems to fare pretty evenly with Wei in the later battles, though Xiahou Yuan did win one to be fair. And technically, Shu and Wu were complete failures, because at the end of the Three Kingdoms, they had nothing to show for their efforts. You are ignoring all the great moments in the process.

The heck does that have to do with anything?He led an armed insurrection against the Han,allying himself with the Qiang no less.If that isn't High Treason I don't know what is.And this isn't like breaking off after Dong Zhuo took over.Emperor Ling was alive and well and the Han was still in one piece and these two rebels broke away.


I put this in to try to open up the topic a little more. The Han was in poor shape, corrupt, and dominated by figures like He Jin who were no better than Dong Zhuo (except for the most part, their power went unchallenged save by other court figures). When the Qiang invaded Liangzhou, Ma Teng saw it would be better off with them. It made perfect sense to join the Qiang over a government dominated by corrupt fools. The Han was still technically in one piece until 220, just the people who ran the government and held power changed. Had it been the reign of a powerful, dominant Han Dynasty, would Ma Teng have had cause to rebel, or the Qiang cause to invade?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:19 am

At Tong Pass Cao Cao didn't fare too well until Xiahou Yuan showed up. Cao also got personally massacred at Han Zhong (partly by Ma Chao, as Cao Zhang saved his father by repelling the pursuing forces led by Wu Lan, a subordinate of Chao). If Shu outnumbered Wei's greatest western army in Han Zhong, why is it impossible to fare evenly in terms of resources with them again?


Cao Cao wasn't personally massacred in Hanzhong.He only came in just in time to order the withdrawal and guard against further advance into Liangzhou.

And technically, Shu and Wu were complete failures, because at the end of the Three Kingdoms, they had nothing to show for their efforts. You are ignoring all the great moments in the process.


Not exactly.At least they survived their attacks.Ma Chao took a counterattack and fell apart.Additionally they did kill off much important Wei personnel and defeat the armies of Wei in serious battles on multiple occassions.

I put this in to try to open up the topic a little more. The Han was in poor shape, corrupt, and dominated by figures like He Jin who were no better than Dong Zhuo (except for the most part, their power went unchallenged save by other court figures). When the Qiang invaded Liangzhou, Ma Teng saw it would be better off with them. It made perfect sense to join the Qiang over a government dominated by corrupt fools. The Han was still technically in one piece until 220, just the people who ran the government and held power changed. Had it been the reign of a powerful, dominant Han Dynasty, would Ma Teng have had cause to rebel, or the Qiang cause to invade?


He Jin same as Dong Zhuo?Certainly not!He Jin never dominated in 185 at all.In fact Emperor Ling was always wary of He Jin's power in the court,though that power is always availible no matter what the reign and entrusted to the Empress' family.Ling took specific steps to curb He Jin's influence including giving himself an actual military rank above He Jin and creating an army within the capital commanded by eunuchs and separate from He Jin's own command structure as General in Chief.

Also the Han from 220 and the Han from 185 are completely different entities.In 220,in fact from 189 onwards the empire at large no longer responded to Han edicts and the influence of the government was essentially over but in 185 the entire empire still ran according to orders dispatched from the capital.Though there were instabilities,the Han government was still working.
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:45 am

Exar Kun wrote:Cao Cao wasn't personally massacred in Hanzhong.He only came in just in time to order the withdrawal and guard against further advance into Liangzhou.


Wasn't he saved in the battle from Wu Lan (subordinate of Ma Chao) by Cao Zhang?

Not exactly.At least they survived their attacks.Ma Chao took a counterattack and fell apart.Additionally they did kill off much important Wei personnel and defeat the armies of Wei in serious battles on multiple occassions.


The comparisons are clearer than you think. Both kingdoms were founded, and both had early success against Wei. The wars continued, each side had victories and shifts occurred, but ultimately they were defeated and crushed. Ma Chao's war is basically just a miniature version of the greater conflict. Ma Chao and his generals did well for themselves for most of the campaign - this is all I am trying to say (not saying that Wei didn't do great also, note).

He Jin same as Dong Zhuo?Certainly not!He Jin never dominated in 185 at all.In fact Emperor Ling was always wary of He Jin's power in the court,though that power is always availible no matter what the reign and entrusted to the Empress' family.Ling took specific steps to curb He Jin's influence including giving himself an actual military rank above He Jin and creating an army within the capital commanded by eunuchs and separate from He Jin's own command structure as General in Chief.


Yes, you are right. He Jin became the dominant figure only much later. The entire reason I have been insisting that Ma Teng rebelled for good reason is that I suspect that there was indeed good reason. Looking deeper, I realize my suspicions lie next to Zhang Jue's Yellow Scarves Rebellion. Zhang Jue does not rebel, and gain immense support across China for no apparent reason. There were clearly problems in the empire that gave Ma Teng good reason to join a rebellion.

Also the Han from 220 and the Han from 185 are completely different entities.In 220,in fact from 189 onwards the empire at large no longer responded to Han edicts and the influence of the government was essentially over but in 185 the entire empire still ran according to orders dispatched from the capital.Though there were instabilities,the Han government was still working.


There were still instabilities - that is what I am pointing at. Ma Teng did not rebel out of the blue, and judging by his later actions, was not motivated heavily by desire for power.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:23 am

Wasn't he saved in the battle from Wu Lan (subordinate of Ma Chao) by Cao Zhang?


If you are refering to the incident where Zhang killed Wu Lan, its' false. Wu Lan tried to cut off supplies or something to Cao Hong and Zhang Fei did a feint on them. Cao Xui saw through this and defeated them. Wu Lan was killed by Qiangs who gave his head to Cao Hong.

Also, what evidence do you have that Ma Chao was in Hanzhong.

As for some info on his battles, in Kongming(this site) according to the battle events, this is what I found on Ma Chao:

211:Cao Cao defeats Ma Chao, Battle of Southern Wei

212: Xiahou Yuan annihilates Liang Xing(one of Han Sui's 8 knights), Battle of Lucheng

213: Ma Chao attacks Wei Kang, Battle of Ji,
Yang Bu attacks Ma Chao, Battle of Ji

214: Xiahou Yuan defeats Ma Chao, Battle of Qi Mountains
Xiahou Xuan attacks Han Sui, Battle of Changli

215: Cao Cao annihilates Han Sui, Battle of Hechi



Apparently, none of this mentions him winning. Two battles doesn't say. No mention of Chang An either.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:16 am

Ma Chao did score a victory over Wei Kang, but besides that he was a mostly ineffective leader.
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:30 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Also, what evidence do you have that Ma Chao was in Hanzhong.


This one's not just SGYY :wink: -

Huang Zhong's SGZ bio wrote:When Liu Bei became the Prince of Hanzhong, Huang Zhong was appointed as Hou Jiangjun (General of the Rear). Zhuge Liang spoke to Liu Bei that, “Huang Zhong’s fame used to be way too far to be equal to that of Guan Yu or Ma Chao, but ever since this battle, he can be said to be of equal status as them. Ma Chao and Zhang Fei were nearby to witness the battle exploit, hence they could be convinced. However, Guan Yu is currently not with us here and should he hear of this, he would not be too happy.” Liu Bei replied,”I will do the explaining personally.” Thus, Huang Zhong was ranked equal with Guan Yu and the rest (Zhang Fei and Ma Chao) and given the noble title of Marquis of GuanNei.


There you have it!

211:Cao Cao defeats Ma Chao, Battle of Southern Wei


And a similar history of Shu:

264 - Shu was defeated by Wei and conquered.

You didn't read what I had mentioned above - about how the fact that Ma Chao ultimately lost doesn't make him a failure at war. Doing so would ignore his deeds in the battles that made up the war. Though his own bio doesn't mention much, read the Wei ones such as Cao Cao's, try to get past all the "The Great Ancestor" (Cao Cao) and "the rebels" (Ma Chao) :roll: , and assess his performance. I assure you you don't give him enough credit.

212: Xiahou Yuan annihilates Liang Xing(one of Han Sui's 8 knights), Battle of Lucheng

213: Ma Chao attacks Wei Kang, Battle of Ji,
Yang Bu attacks Ma Chao, Battle of Ji

214: Xiahou Yuan defeats Ma Chao, Battle of Qi Mountains
Xiahou Xuan attacks Han Sui, Battle of Changli

215: Cao Cao annihilates Han Sui, Battle of Hechi


This part I don't follow exactly, so please explain. Didn't Ma Chao break up with Han Sui after Tong Pass? I know Ma Chao went back to Liangzhou and returned to smash Wei Kang though was eventually forced to retreat by Yang Fu's ploy, but how does Han Sui hang in the picture? And by 214, hadn't Ma Chao gone to Zhang Lu?

Apparently, none of this mentions him winning. Two battles doesn't say. No mention of Chang An either.


You ignore the Battle of Pingyang, where Ma Chao was the pivotal figure, as well as his contributions to Wei's defeat in Han Zhong. Not to mention his great performance in the war at Weinan and Tong Pass in 211, and his crushing of Wei Kang. He was not without defeat, true, but you don't give him enough credit.

Ma Chao did score a victory over Wei Kang, but besides that he was a mostly ineffective leader.


I question first, how you came up with this, and second, how can you possibly justify it. If you mean leadership skills in war, Ma Chao demostrated he was very solid in that category. If you mean leadership as in Liu Bei and Cao Cao were leaders of great forces, Ma Chao's problems arise not in his lack of skills there, but in his lack of a competent strategist. He was not a fool, but was no Sun Tzu, and couldn't see through a good ploy. He also lacked strategic direction of his army. His tactics of cavalry charges and constantly pressing the enemy worked well in many cases, but he didn't have someone like Zhuge Liang advising him on where to move his forces, etc. and also lacked a long-term warplan beyond "smash the enemy".
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:28 pm

The point everyone is trying to make is that Ma Chao was being defeated before the ploy and that he never beat any worthy opponents(who's Wei Kang?) and that he never damaged Wei enough to worry them. He was just a rebel who got pacified but escaped.
And at Hanzhong, he didn't do anything. Just because he was in the battle doesn't mean he did anything. If his bio doesn't mention he did anything and no other bio mentions he did anything then what did he do at Hanzhong? Nothing.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:45 pm

The comparisons are clearer than you think. Both kingdoms were founded, and both had early success against Wei. The wars continued, each side had victories and shifts occurred, but ultimately they were defeated and crushed. Ma Chao's war is basically just a miniature version of the greater conflict. Ma Chao and his generals did well for themselves for most of the campaign - this is all I am trying to say (not saying that Wei didn't do great also, note).


You're starting to make too much of this supposed win now.I checked Cao Cao's bio and it mentions that this big 'win' is actually Ma Chao just assailing Cao Cao's boats when they tried to cross the river.Lame.Just dismiss any concept of a victory from your mind.
Stopping a river crossing does not equal the great battle victories of Kongming.Ma Chao sucked.He achieved nothing.He didn't even dent the Wei army and that's a fact.

Looking deeper, I realize my suspicions lie next to Zhang Jue's Yellow Scarves Rebellion. Zhang Jue does not rebel, and gain immense support across China for no apparent reason. There were clearly problems in the empire that gave Ma Teng good reason to join a rebellion.


There's a difference.Zhang Jue was a peasant rebellion.Ma Teng rebelled using enemies of the Chinese people.He wanted to put the Han people under Qiang dominion whereas Zhang Jue wanted a new Chinese dynasty under his command.
Additionally,the kind of conditions Zhang Jue's people would experience are not what Ma Teng would have as Lingzhou was a very militarized province and is always under control by the Colonel Protector of the Qiang,an officer who the eunuchs do not trifle with.

There were still instabilities - that is what I am pointing at. Ma Teng did not rebel out of the blue, and judging by his later actions, was not motivated heavily by desire for power.


Point them out.I know much about the late Latter Han and Liangzhou was not an unstable province outside of the fact that the Qiang are next door.
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