Cao Cao's laughing after Chi Bi.

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Cao Cao's laughing after Chi Bi.

Unread postby Da_Chicago_Jigalo » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:46 pm

Alright, after Chi Bi, Cao Cao fled like hell trying to retreat back into his own land. Every time he busts out in laughter and insulted Kongming and Zhou Yu about not setting an ambush where he was, someone comes along and ambushes him there. Dont u think after happening twice he would realize what happens every time he does that?
Yo.....
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:52 pm

It's fictional. You really think that Zhuge Liang can go right into Wei territory, and hide an ambush right in the middle of it and at the same time be at Chibi?
The novel just makes the whole laughter thing up. Cao Cao just retreated like a normal retreat and was not ambushed by anyone, only pursued.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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yo

Unread postby Da_Chicago_Jigalo » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm

Ok, then where can i find information about what really happened and not what it says in the novel.
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Re: yo

Unread postby Jiangji » Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:55 pm

Da_Chicago_Jigalo wrote:Ok, then where can i find information about what really happened and not what it says in the novel.


Read the Sanguo Zhi (SGZ), it is written by Chen Shou during the Jin era and it is according to historical. However, it is a little bit pro-wei but not very much.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:45 am

How is it Pro-Wei? The only reason why is because Wei was the best, and biggest at the time. If you are gonna go historicly, it should be obvious that the bigger state is the better state.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:14 am

:lol: Far from it. If Wei was best, why did they not overcome the smaller, as well as worse :? , states sooner? Wei was ineffective throughout its history, held together by a few noteworthy heroes, the central one being its own founder, Cao Cao.

Though I certainly agree that Chen Shou did not do some figures (Ma Chao in particular) justice and that Luo probably has more truth there simply because he covered him in more detail and may have used other sources from comparable records to folk tales to determine actual history where Chen Shou left it blank. We do not know where bias may have come into play, so do not treat Chen Shou's record as the final word, because it is certainly far from it. He was a historian who lived the era, and so would have put his perspective into it.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:28 am

Ma Chao did suck. He lost to Cao Cao, he was scared of Guan Yu and Xu Chu, his armies only won initially, later, the tide turned so much that it can be compared to a tree being planted, and then before it gets to grow, it's taken out of the ground.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Jiangji » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:28 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:How is it Pro-Wei? The only reason why is because Wei was the best, and biggest at the time. If you are gonna go historicly, it should be obvious that the bigger state is the better state.


You have to remember, it was written during the Jin era. Jin Kingdom was started by the sima family. Surely, he would write thing that would favour the wei instead of how bad cao cao was slaughtering the people or sima yi was the traitor. If Wei was so powerful, it could have conquer the entire China by around 208-210. Instead it took about 70 years for wei(later Jin) to conquer the entire China.
Last edited by Jiangji on Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:44 am

Ma Chao did not suck. Please don't get me started on what will get me arguing for a long time :| . Chen Shou left so many blanks there that had Ma Chao gone to war in an M1 Abrams tank and Tomahawk missiles, we wouldn't have known it :lol: . He also himself expressed bias against Ma in the bio, so you have your answer right there. Jiangji's notes about Chen Shou are excellent in particular, so read on there.

Ma Chao seriously destroyed Cao Cao's armies in brilliant and great strokes four times. Jia Xu's brilliance saved the day (or Ma Chao's lack of a Jia Xu of his own). I argued similarily with Sima Yi as inferior to Zhuge Liang, and I will argue with Ma Chao vs. Cao Cao. If Ma had Cao's resources (strategists in particular), there would have been no contest. He was unstoppable on the field. He was the superior warrior and general, and Cao's generals and warriors (save Xu Zhu) could not match him. And honestly, do you blame him for not wanting to try to capture Cao Cao with Xu Zhu staring him down (he would have tried it had Xu not been so alert)? Xu Zhu in battle matched Ma Chao in skill, something no other could do.
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yo

Unread postby Da_Chicago_Jigalo » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:42 am

"Ma Chao did not suck. "

This is true, one of those Ma Onslaughts could devistate any army, no matter who was leading it.
Ma Chao did alot of these while fighting Cao Cao's forces.
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